RESILIENCE & REDEFINING NORMS: Ultra-Runner Rachel Macpherson on Mental Strength & Going Bald

And my first question, which I imagine is the question that you're getting a lot of the time is all who you raising money for now? You are raising money now but as far as I understand it, that's almost an afterthought. So what sparked the idea of shaving your head and why now?

So I've wanted to shave my head for as long as I can remember like 14, 15 kind of joking at the time saying I'd love to be bold like it would just be so much easier just getting up in the morning hassle free but obviously saying it quite flippantly back then with no intention of ever shaving it. And in the last year I suppose getting into running and stuff as well, I thought this would be so much easier just having no hair. And then it's probably in the last three months I've. I've late lay awake in bed a few times at nightime really going through like if I did shave my head what things would be impacted and thinking about work meetings or going on nights out like could I deal with that? And I'm like no, I don't think I could actually. And then more recently so that was just last Last Tuesday, it must been the Monday night. I was lying awake for about an hour, going through again the ins and outs and I. I came to like, I was 80% sure I was going to do it. I was like, I am going to do this. I woke up the next day and I was like, there's no way I'm shing my head. I couldn't do it. And so sent a few messages around late my unit head at work, just to see would that be okay at work to be bo still not fully being serious about it. And then messaged my mum and sister to be joking about it as well. And the mom came back with quite a serious message, like, Rachel, this is serious. This is not funny. You are not shaving your head. Or like, really? You can't shave your head. I would be devastated. I would be heartbroken. And it was in that moment I was like, I'm fucking shav my head. I realised I'm quite stubborn. And so from there it became very serious. And I was like, this feels like something I need to do. I need to shave my head. And I not naysayers. People are saying it in a caring way, but people really question, why are you doing this? You know, don't do that to your hair. But it all comes back to vanity and things. So that's became a reason that I want to do it. Just because nothing bad'going to happen when I shave my head.

That is interesting. Like you say, nothing bad is going to happen. It sound so creepy observing you. Your hair is very long. Could you not from maintenance purposes. Could you not just have it cut short? Why completely bol. I mean, you're going full, full coojack.

I've never done anything in half measures. And this is gonna sound so contradictory. I don't want short hair. Like the shortest I've had. It's probably shoulder length. And I hated how that looked. I don't like it. it didn't feel like me. And I don't feel like I want to get a short cropped haircut. I kind of just want to experience with being bald once in my life and I might regret I'm fully prepared to. How would you say it, Lee?

I d say it's all right. I wish I had your hair. I do.

But I think there's people in more need.

It is in at the minute. I mean, all the, all the greats. Phil Collins, me. Right. Said Fred.

Prob. The sexiest bald man.

Yes. Yeah, right. Said Fred. Are you too young to remember? Right, Said Fred?

No, I'iare of them.

They were too sexy for their shirt. So sexy it, hurt.

There you go.

Completely bold.

What more do you need?

Exactly. I think that's proof if ever you needed it.

Daniel plans to shave his head bald and then let it grow back

First of all, as a contingency plan, have you googled how long it might take to grow back? And what's the plan? I mean, once you go. But I suppose you won't know until you're bold and then are you going to stay bold or just let it grow back? But I mean, I imagine, yeah, what's the plan?

Yeah, I, I have done as much research as I can. I've wrote downor against that. I've thought about this a lot. And so apparently Google says about, your hair grows about 6 inches in a year. And I think my hair grows quite fast. I'm telling myself, that anyway, so I'm thinking it's going to be maybe Bob. Bob cut in a year, but probably three years it would take to get back to this thing. But this is too long anyway. But I'm thinking, you know, it's going to be the first year is going to, after a year it's going to be kind of socially more acceptable again. And, the current plan is just to be bald once. I want to be totally bballald. Just. I don't really know why I've just now got this urge that want. I want to do that. But the plan is to it grow it back. But I might. That's one of the reasons for doing it, is I've never had the balls to get a short haircut. I don't think I'd suit. I, I don't particularly fancy it, but I'll have no choice but to experience all those different PA Len. So there might be a lens that comes in at that. I'm like, actually, I quite like this.

You can take all the stages from zero, from zero to boob length and decide your words, not mine. decide what is your preference Exactly. But why do you think there's such a. Because there is a stigma, isn't there? Is it because of Brittanney and you know, do people see it as a cry for help? Is it a vanity thing where just women aren't expected to because they don't generally naturally go bold. They're not expected to be bold. I mean, what's your. Has it changed your view at all on, kind of vanity and not feminism? But I suppose what it is to be female, if that doesn't sound like a weird question.

No.

Would you know what I mean? It's like, I't.

I totally get what you mean. And it. That wasn't my reason for doing. Itn't. Wasn't deep to begin with. But then having the conversations with people, I was deliberately mentioning it to anyone I could before I published the fundraiseising lng just to make sure I was okay with any reaction and to obviously make me think of things I maybe hadn't considered. And I found the conversations really interesting because anybody who was kind of questioning that or really getting me to think about when we had the conversations, it all kind of comes back to vanity and how you look. Even if some people. My mu was like, no, but it's not just about that. I'm like, well, tell me more like. But really it was. When you get down to the root of it, it was it, excuse the pun, it was. It is vanity. And it's made me. Because even looking at my reasons why I would be scared to do it, it was thinking like, oh, if I have to go on a big important and work meeting and I'm bald, or I'GO on a night out and I'm bald, that is because of how I look. And I thought if I was living in the wild. Strange example, but if I was on a desert island by myself, I would have been bald years ago. Like, it's 100% how it's kind of viewed. And I think it does come down to that. What's socially acceptable, for women, like, if a guy shaved his head, even if you had a good head of hair, it might be like, oh, wow, you've had some haircut. But it wouldn't be like, wow, you've had a mental breakdown. And so I found that interest to have those kind of conversations.

Now, that is interesting because if you're, if you have, you know, a buzz cut or a crew cut, you're either in the Marines or you would imagine, you know, I'm not talking about me who's like, you know, just PA Daniel'bold I mean, if you choose to shave your head, then you're normally a macho man who's in the army, in the Navy. You know, it's not seen as a. And maybe that's it. Maybe that is, it's seen as a ma show thing to do and something that women shouldn't do. Because I was trying to think this. I was thinking this on the drive in, the way home before I was going to talk to you. The only women I could think of were, Britney Spears and Sinead O'Connor. And Sinead O'Connor was seen as a bit of an anarchist and a bit of a disruptor and she did, you know, burn a picture of the Pope I believe. But I would. But was that. But if you just looked at her without knowing anything about her, I think that you would have that. Or people may have that impression of her because she had short or no hair. Because you're making. People are making a judgement of you and I wonder what reaction you'll get. There's one thing talking about it, but it's another thing. Like I say you're supposed walking down the street or going into a shop for the first time or whatever and people may be doing double takes orever because it's not the norm and you know how I mean you, I mean you must have thought about all this and how you going to react to that and.

Yeah, and it scares me so much and I do feel they urge to like I'm thinking I'll wear a hat a lot, especially when it's cold obviously. But I have got that feeling like I can just put a hat on and hide it. But I really want to get to a place where I'm like no, just own it. Who cares if you get lu'f I'see don't know how I'll react and that's what scares me. But once it's done, it's done. I just need to.

There's things two things to unpack there. firstly, now that you've mentioned it, December is the fucking in Scotland is the worst time to shave your head.

Because it's going to be freezing.

But also you can easily wear. I wear hats most of the winter anyway when here so actually I won't probably feel that different.

Okay, fair enough. That's. That one debunked. The other thing that I was gonna say I've completely forgotten. So let me think about that for a minute while I try and think what comes back to me. Nope, it's gone.

After choosing to have your hair shaved, you then make the decision for charity

Gone should have was a great question.

After choosing to have your hair shaved, you then make the decision decision to do that for charity. So can you tell us a bit more about why you chose to support the little princess? Trust and calm.

Yeah. So I was always thinking, when I was thinking would I ever shave my head? I was always thinking about donating the ponytail because that's been mentioned by people who have ve done similar things in the past. And so yeah, I was always going to donate the ponytail but I Don't really like funries and just I know it's not me but it just feels like you're asking for money. It's never. I don't really like doing it and I've also try not go on social media much nowadays so I knew if I was doing that would have to kind of post things but it was actually going on a work call. Your wife happened to be there and I think it was her suggestion she was like if you do that it.

Sounds sort of worthy shit. She'd come out with.

Saying like you would have the fundra for it if you're doing something. I thought that's true actually that's It'd be a waste not to do that. So that's where the fundra and thing came from. But I wanted to be clear that this is something I want to do. I'm not trying to be.

Yeah you'not you're not doing it to raise money and I don't know of any I was going to say any men or women that just want to shave their head. So my best mate shaved his head Wasn't particularly long anyway but again it was for charity.

So little princess trust so what do they do they take your hair and do you give them the money or do you actually give them the hair as well?

No money. Just to hear like you just bag it up in a sandwich bag as far as I I need to look into that a a bit more ca becausee I want to find out how they actually make it into wig But I did have a quick look on their website and I think they were looking for ideally 12 inches of hair so I think but it's probably not too far off that but I think once it's in a ponytail they just. They just chop the ponytail off and bag it up.

They off on the form m application form did you not just put boob length?

It ah was under chest length Lah.

Said under chest length but yeah reckon.

There'S enough hair there to make 12 inches.

So what's that? The foot?

Yeah I ve definitely got that haven't I?

yeah, I would say so yeah.

That's a big foot.

That is a big foot. Okay and calm who I've not heard of so I'm intrigued.

Yeah. So they're campaign against living miserably and I picked them because the last time I did any fung reason'I can remember anything significant anyway was in 2018 and so we lost my dad's suicide in 2017 and so me and my sister wented to fundries and do something after that. So in the following June we climbed Ben Nevis and it was maybe my sister Carly actually that found that But just looking up charities, that kind of deal, we wanted something that was suicide in particular. And so cam are quite focused on suicide prevention and things. So we raised money for them back then. And so I did have a quick look at other men's mental health stuff and I thought I don't know enough about all them. That just seemed like the default one. So I decided to fundraise for them again.

Good, good. I mean we have got someone whose name escapes me now but I'm working at the minute on the university campus in Glasgow. So I see a psychologist, Dr. Jan and she recommended I got in contact with Dr. Rouri. He's out the uni. He has dedicated his life to studying suicide M and the rates and the whys and the wherefores and what have you. So. And he has agreed to come on the podcast so they'd be interested to get his, his take on things.

Has your outlook changed since your dad's passing or since cancer diagnosis

And you say well we haven't even touched on your running yet which I'm dying to get into. But I would say, you know, with the shaved head and the ultra running that'll come onto. And your own words saying you don't do things by halves. Is that something that's always been you or has your outlook changed since your dad's passing?

And I think that's always been in me to be honest. I was a, a tearay teenager always doing greatite mental things actually if anything have a calm down. Yeah, I would say okay, this is you calm. Yeah. Shooting my head and running hundreds of miles. This is calmly. I don't know, that's hard to say. But no, I've definitely always been a eber nut.

And do you think it's changed your outlook at all? I'm just thinking from bang on about looking cancer. But you know we, I talk about you. There's a line in the sand with me and my diagnosis and was, was that before I had the cancer, was that after I had the cancer. And you know outlooks and perspectives do change.

Rachel says losing her dad has changed her outlook on life

and obviously you were old enough to have a significant impact on you and you say you ve got a sister.

Yeah.

Do you feel that that has changed you in your outlook at all? Must have done, yeah.

Because I was only 22, my sister was 19. But weirdly I said don't want to wor this wrong. like I Think it's almost this feel so uncomfortable saying so. I might get my words wrong here but, like, almost had a positive impact in the long run. It's obviously the most awful thing that's ever happened to me and, you know, it'snn affect me for the rest of my life. But I think it's changed me. Like, I'm a lot more tuned into, like, people's feelings and a lot more. Like I feel a lot more empathy towards people. I always think I had a bit of that anyway, but it feels quite amplified now. And I think I didn't get into running because. Because of losing my dad. But I do wonderimes, you know, the ultra running stuff. There's a lot of people who are in ultraru running that have traumatic backgrounds and stuff. And I've never. I'm like, I've not experienced trauma, but then I'm like, you actually have, Rachel. Ye. But I didn't feel a direct thing, like I didn't get into running to kind of feel better or get away from that. But I do think it'd be. The more and more I've thought about recently, I think it would be naive of for me to think that there's not some sort of link, like I feel like going through losing my dad. If you'd said that to me before it happened, if he'told me that was going to happen, I would have said I would never get out of bed again. I'll never smile, I'll never feel happy again. I'll never laugh. So I've been so surprised that actually life does go and you can feel happy again. It's. You do learn to live with it, as cliched as that sounds. And I think surviving that and coming through it has almost made me feel stronger. And so I do think I take that into ultra and stuff. That's what'a every 100 miles. If you've went through that and survived that.

yeah, yeah, Well, I mean, that's what I was going to. I mean, again, it's a mental health podcast. So not only that'we're so interested to talk to you because, there's obviously the mental health. It's not the mental health side, but I suppose the psychological side of shaving your head. There's obviously what's happened to your dad and then the whole, well, we should probably tell people that you did a race. We've done many races. However, you've not been actually running for that long, is that right?

Yeah.

Nodding doesn't work on a podcastual.

Sorry, I thought. I was waiting for you to finish the question.

Le'me waffling on. You've listened to a couple of episodes and know that it's just me talking.

You've been running for what, three years? Two and a half

Yeah. So you've been running for what, three years?

Two and a half.

Two and a half years.

Neither. Three. Sorry, you'right. I'm forgetting it's nearly the end of the year.

Okay, so before those three years, what was your experience of running?

Oh, not then. I was. Is drug talk okay on this podcast?

Is what drug.

Drug abuse?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I thought that's what you said. I was just checking it.

Yeah. So, no, I had no, I was not sporty or anything. Like, as a teenager. I was just going out, drinking, smoking, taking drugs. Probably from 13 softer drugs, 15 harder drugs. So quite young and up until actually only about three years ago. so that was kind of my life and. And then probably trying to get away from all that, was trying lots of different fitness things and just never stuck to anything. And then I split up from a partner at the time, actually, he moved out. And I wanted, like, a really clean start, and that was like an opportunity. He was nothing to do with that, the taking drugs and stuff, but it was just at. In my head, I thought, I can have a clean start here. And so from that point, didn't touch anything, and then got into running a month or two after that.

So how did you get into running? How did. Is it something you've always fancied

So.

So how did you get into running? How did. How did that. Is it something you've always fancied, like shaving your head? Is it something that's always. You've always fancied? Or is it just a conversation? Oh, you should maybe give that a go. We've got a running club on a Tuesday. And you went along and that was it.

And no. And a few years before, I actually got into it and I had tried, like, going out a handful of runs a year, just not. Not even a 5k. Just try and trying the couch, the 5k thing on and off and never stick to it. But did have that desire to try and get fit. Like, I had a gym membership for years. Again, just wasted it. But there was that desire there to try and get fit and get better, but never, ever stuck it. And then I'd signed up, I think it was for the Virtual Edinburgh Half Marathon, and I was coming up to almost a year where you wouldn't be able to submit, like, a time for it. So that kind of prompted me to, like, let's try and do that. and so that was in early 2022. That Ah, I did train to do the virtual half marathon and then it just snowballed from there.

So within three years you are now running ultramathons. You did a race not so long ago that was 24 hours.

Yeah.

And long. How far did you go in 24 hours?

107 miles.

107 miles. So within three years you're running a 24 hour race. 107 miles. And where were you placed in that race? Rachel?

Second.

Second Femalele.

Yeah. Female.

Yeah.

Yeahah of things andves Right.

Rachel is fascinated by ultras and has only done a handful of them

So when you say you don't do things behal halves then so many questions there. How again mentally, how do you. What makes you decide to do it? To think well I think I'd like to run for 24 hours. How do you then mentally prepare yourself? Well and physically but mentally because it's as much mental I would imagine that it is physical. And then what keeps you going in during the actual race?

I'm totally fascinated by ultras. Like there was probably six months in fact there was nearly a year I think by between deciding I wanted to do an ultra. I heard it on a podcast and I just thought oh, so you do.

Listen to other podcast.

One podcast list to one pod soon to be two soon to be.

You're just gonna listen to this episode actually quite good.

Yeah, listen to my episode.

I'll get to your episode and then just bin it.

And so just hearing people talking about ultras and I'm still feel I've only done a handful of ultras. I'm still.

There's still so much only done a handful of vultures.

No, but there's a lot that I'm fascinated to experience but I haven't actually experienced myself yet. And just I don't know, I actually don't know what that desire is. Just to see what the human body is capable of and pushing myself to the absolute limits. I don't know. There's something exciting about seeing something and thinking there's no way I could do that. And then the feeling when you actually do it's like wow, I could do that. What else could it do? And it just escalates. And there s something that I do believe ultras can give you. I've read this in books and podcasts. I've not fully experienced that myself yet. But ultras can take you to a place like a really, really dark mental place. But like you're thinking people can go for days and ultras and that sleep deprivation, that pushing through some seriously hard dark stuff that that builds mental Strength and resilience that I totally believe translates into real life stuff and even things like losing somebody, like the worst thing that could happen builds that result to make, make you be able to deal with that better. So that's always fascinated from, from day one I of just hearing about ultras.

Think there is something like you say like if this is a really bad example but imagine if you're in a meeting or whatever it is and something's not going your way. There is. I can run 107 miles in the fucking day. It'not this is nothing. And I do. I mean. Right. I should say as well that you kind of got me back into the running ca because I've had chest infection after chest infection. I should say that I was highly embarrassed that you were encouraging me on strav. And I'm like o I've just run four and a half kilometres in 40 minutes. You're going great. Well done for getting out. I'm like, is she just enthusiastic or is she an absolute piss taker because she's run an ultramathon for a day. Right. And I'm going O, my big fat middle aged bolden bloke who's lumbered about. Lumbered down the cysychle path for 40 minutes and yeah. And you. I mean you've done that in three years. Rachel.

No, just. Can I come in there though? That's absolutely not a pist. Like there's nothing that excites me than.

See?

No, like see that. That's so much because people like my mu. She trains the half marathon this year too and seen her. If I see a post on travel from her. Are you. I'm like yes. So excited about like it's not as exciting if there's. I know somebody trains, you know, six times a week and they've been doing ultras for years. That's. Yeah, I know how they can go and do 50m miles or whatever. That's not as exciting. I love seeing new people getting into it and oh, I'm a total straba perver. I love seeing people doing like someone's done their first run in a while. I'm straight on it, like well, God love it.

You came off social media three weeks ago for mental health reasons

But you were saying earlier as well, sorry I'm jumping about here, but you were saying you come off social. Are you still on Strava or. And again, was it a mental health thing you decided to come off social media or what was he thinking behind that?

So this may be the last year and a half I've tried mostly Instagram, so that's where most of my time was spent. Just. I go through phases of deleting it, but it only really last a week or two. But the difference I feel in that time, it impacts positively, on my focus, how smart I feel, how, like, how productive I am at work, my relationships, how thoughtful I feel with family. It just impacts positively on everything. How tidy the house is. If I read more. So many things. And then somehow it creeps back in. And it's constantly in my head, like, why, why am I getting strong back in. And I know how great I feel.

When I'm on the benefits.

so just, just this month I managed two weeks. So normally when I delete Instagram, my use on Facebook and Strava goes up, so I just end up scrolling like on them. So two, about not. It must have been three weeks ago, but it was for two weeks. I deleted Facebook, Instagram, and Strava. And Strava was the one that scared me most because there was like, I had a run coming up that was hoping to do a 5K PB attempt and that was what came into my head. I thought, but if I get a pb, I'd want that on Strava. And it totally sout me my track. I was like, how weird is that? That is obviously to get that kudos and people be, wow, look what you've done. And that. I was like, you need to delete that because that's actually unhealthy and I't know that happens to a lot of people, but I thought I met quite early in my run and I want to make sure that what I continued, like the races I chosese to do, the stuff that I do is for me and not, not getting impacted by that'be cool for people to see on Strava. So I'm not saying it'last but that's been three weeks. I've been on Strava. In two weeks I was on Facebook and Instagram and then I had to download it to post my fundraising link. But I do plan on coming off it again. I feel so much better. I love it and I feel totally me. I'm always think I'm me, but particularly in the last few weeks, it's like I'm 100% sure everything I'm doing is me. It's not influenced by anything I'm seeing or see.

I'm thinking it's difficult with a podcast, but I am genuinely thinking of just not. It's so much work to do the social media for the podcast and I'm not sure what effect it has and I'm genuinely thinking of going right, well do you know what? We're going toa do what we do and we're going to put out the episodes and you might post on the day it comes out new episode D d d d But I'm doing like two posts a day on Facebook on so he's like six posts a day and thinking of content and images and blah blah blah bl blah. I'm thinking again mental health wise as well as you then your own personal social media stuff. Checking Facebook or whatever it might be. I'm thinking I don't know whether I'm going to bother. I don't know whether the effort is worth the outcome in the minute. M and maybe like you, maybe we just try it and go, you know what, we're just going to post on a Tuesday when an episode goes out. We're just going to post that and send out a newsletter once to fortnight and that's it. And just see actually how I feel. Because at the end of the day it's a fucking mental health podcast your're.

Mental health rock bottom because you're on social media all the time.

I social media all the time trying to promote my social, my mental health podcast. And I love the fact that you just go because I'm. I'm still new to running. You're doing fucking ultramaathons, Rachel. What are you talking about?

But my ultra journey, my first proper ultra was like a year one year ago. So I want to make sure I could have. I hope to have what? H I hope to have a good 50 years ahead of me running about like 30 years of good running. So I don't want to be influenced over time. I think anybody who uses social media, even if it's in a positive way there will be. If you've used social media for years, we're influenced by what we see. Even if it's in tiny little ways. Our life will be slightly different than what it would have been if we hadn't had social media for the last 10 years or whatever. Yeah, I'm not saying it last. It's very early days. I do go through phases. I'm going to the retreat weeks weekend though. So I think that I might. That'll match my boldness. So I'll have no social media. I'll be a monk in the Himalayas this time next year.

Please tell me you're going to wear an orange Robe I make.

See if I've got an orange jumper.

Actually do it. Boald Head. Orange jumper. Bosh.

Rachel has gone from couch to ultra marathon in two and a half years

Going back to the running though, because I'm fascinated by that. I'm fascinated by everything. Right. I'm fascinated by the boldness, I'm fascinated by the backstory, I'm fascinated by the running. So you decided you were going to start running and did you know at that point, o, I'm going to run fucking miles. Are you going, oh, did you start on the couch to 5k go. Well, I'll just see if I can run 5k. I'm just interested to how you've mentally again, what leaps you've taken to go from a completely novice runner to then running ultras in two and a half years. Well, less than that. Then you decided after year you've been running ultras for a year?

Yeah.

What happened in your head? Or is it just a case that like you say, you don't do things by half and just going, I've started running on day one. I think I'll probably do an ultra in another 12 months?

No, no, definitely not. My goal was just to do a half marathon. And when I did that, I was felt like so far I was. And that's when I really fell in love with running. Cause I was just like, wow, I've done a half marathon. Like I would never have dreamed I could do a half marathon. And at that point I was still saying I would never do a marathon. That's a different ballgame, you know, that couldn't do that, that's too much. Then somehow signed up to a marathon before I'd done my official, I'd done the virtual half marathon by myself. But before I'd even done my half marathon race, I'd signed up to Paris marathon. And I thought, well, if I've signed up to, I'll just have to train for it. and then while I was training for that, the ultra seed got planted and I thought, oh, I'd love to do tre.

See, the thing is, I did a half marathon, the Bournemouth Half Marathon, many years ago, 2017, 2018 maybe, and vowed never to do another half marathon. And maybe that's just where me and you differ.

I don't know. I can't really explain it. There was just that draw. Maybe it as that extreme all or nothing like personality. I don't know.

There's a tiny part of me that would be tempted to do an ultra. Not an ultra. Well, yeah, no, do it.

Sign up for you will get you trained I'll come back on Strabr.

I haven't got. It's the T. No. You know, in all CS I was thinking of. Well, we've spoken about this before, maybe possibly doing something for my five years, which would be next September. But if I was to do a mar. If I was to be stupid enough to. And go, you know what, I'd do a marathon. Just to say, you know what? I can. Can have that mental resilience, the amount of training, I think with two small children, I think even that, let alone an ultra. I mean, how much are you training? Well, how much are you training a week for an ultra marathon?

To be honest, I probably wouldn't be that much different to a marathon. You don't go crazy distances. Like even if you're training for 100 mile race, you would. I don't think, Well, don't quote me here. I don't think you would do any more than kind of like a 30 mile run in one go. You would do more back to back stuff. So you would have like a long. On Saturday.

You wouldn't do more than 30 mil.

M mean like that's at thereme extreme end of ultras. Like it doesn't need to be in everyone's training varys. But you're right, even marathon training, I think with having two young kids is difficult but not impossible.

Not impossible. however, I. My first step. So I have done one junior park run with Isabell and she vowed a bit like me never to do another one. I think it's two kilometres, the junior park run. That's about my limit at the moment. No, to be fair, like I said, I was. You were jollying me along in the fact that if I hadn't posted a run for like three days, I would just get, a. Well, what emoji would it be? Kind of a Y eyes. Yeah, you're watching me. No running being done. And then more recently I've been more consistent with the running. And I was wondering, why isn't Rachel. Rachel's not like on my case and she's not seen that I've done. I didn't realise you come off. Which is why you couldn't see it because I was really chuffed yesterday I did a 30. So I've gone relatively quickly from yeah.

It's a good 1:30.

1:30 yesterday for a 5K. And yes, I am. I don't know whether you're aware that I do the Nutsford thing every six months. So I go down the south and they come up, my pal comes up, he's big into his running and so we're going to do the Nutford park run on the Saturday morning. So my plan is to do it non, stop. Don t. I don't know how hilly it is because if there's any hills then I'm fucked.

We should talk about what kind of training plan you follow

But but we should maybe talk about if you would be prepared to put a training plan, some sort of. What are you looking at me like.

That I'm not qualified? You'd be better asking an A for a train. I'm happy to support you and send the.

What do you mean you're not qualified? Because. Well, whose training plan do you follow?

I've got a coach who's like got qualifications and of course you've got.

A coach because you don't just rock up and do an ultra marathon.

Lots of people do.

So how many. So how many times you train in a week?

It's different just now I'm not in fact I'm not run this week at all. I'm making excuses of've not ra. But at the peak of training I think five, six days a week. But it varies every week she change it'week on week she'll give me my plan it on an app. So it's very flexible.

And does that change in terms of it's not always running or. It's obviously going to be different types of running but sometimes is it in the gym or weights or other training as well? Not just running?

Yeah, that's all alongside the running. So at the peak weeks it would be five, six days running and then I'm doing weight sometimes three times a week but probably in the peak weeks would bring the weights down bit. So maybe just doing two strength sessions a week and meant to be doing all the Yan stuff which I'a messed with that I want to get better at that.

Amy Alexander does yoga and drinks chocolate

Well, sorry, that's something you said earlier and I was gonna with the last episode now that you're a fully feedged listener. The last episode was with Amy Alexander who is out in or was out in Bali doing a yoga retreat and is now in New Zealand. So she's we've got a couple of episodes with her most recently. So my ey she's bigg up the yoga, bigg up the cacao. Apparently they do like cacao ceremonies. So you do yoga and drink chocolate? Yeah, I mean what could be better than doing yoga and eating chocolate?

Amen.

So there's another one for the list.

I'll add that.

When you're deep into an ultrama marathon, battling exhaustion or pain

Okay, well, here's one. When you're deep into an ultrama marathon, battling exhaustion or pain, what keeps you going? Why don't you just go, oh, fuck this?

And it's a good question. And it's not something I've experienced a lot because I hope this doesn't sound wanky. They. Apart from the last ultra, which'come on to the other ultras, I'done yeah, there's been hard bits where it's, you know, I've hit a wee bit of an energy that briefly or I felt a bit sick or have been physically sick and then that passes. But it's not been anything at all that's made me think, I want to stop this. It's. They've been all right the last one because that was almost, almost doubling my distance. I'DONE before that was. They call it the pain cave. A lot of people in ultra, so you hit that pain cave and it's about, you know, how you navigate through that. And I'm like dying to get to the pain cave. And then when I.