JONATHAN AGNEW: Beyond the Boundary – Cricket, Mental Health & Finding Strength in Adversity

Okay, so today's guest really needs no introduction, but I better had as it's the medium of sound. He has played cricket for England, taken 666 first class wickets and is the legendary voice of cricket. It's Jonathan Agnew.

Well, I'm delighted to be with you, and well done you. You're looking fit and well.

Thank you. Thank you very much. Yeah. Yes, thank you. Yeah. I can't quite believe you've agreed to come on the podcast, Jonathan. It's a coup. I'm delighted.

Well, it's nice. I mean I think people think my job is just you know, turning up and commentating on cricket but actually there is a lot more to it and when you you know, hopefully I think it's true. We do have a very good relationship with our audience Y and that means all sorts of different things and it does mean engaging with people which is, which is kind of what that part of the job is.

Absolutely.

So there's a lot that goes on sort of behind, behind the scenes rather than this rocking up to Lords, another One Day International. And it's great because it is that sort of programme and it always was really for the first time that I started working on it is over 30 years ago now because Brian Johnston and was a great communicator and knew exactly had to talk to people. and I hope I sort of carried that on because he was very keen that I should. He and I always got on really well together. It's like an old granddad to me really. and it's just nice that there is still that relationship between Test match special and the presenters of that and people who listen.

TMS studio is always awash with treats including cakes

Which brings me up my first question which I can imagine the TMS studio is always awash with treats including cakes, as we mind cake. I've been listeners sending a lot of stuff. Have you got is there a particular cake that stands out that you can remember?

Well, there's well Actually, I mean the most amazing cake. Well, we've had, we've had two royal cakes. So one from the late Queen. Oh, really were 50, I think. Yeah. She brought this whacking great Dundee cake in. It's a bit embarrassing because no one knows what to say. And there were four of us lined up. I think there was me, there was Christopher, Bill, Frindel, Henry was there. So but way, what do you say? You know the Queen standing there was bre cake. No one knows what to say. So I did ask her the obvious question. I said, do you make it yourself? And there was a pause and she said, looked at me. She said not personally. She said butly was quite a good answer. And the other one for the World Cup Final 2019 has this incredible cake in which the trophy, there was Owen Morgan, there was the Kate Williamson, there was bales, there were stumps, there was everything. and that was again, I don't think made personally by, by Camilla, but it was certainly delivered on her behalf anyway. So those are two quite a good standout. All sorts we get kids having. Making a cake, to ones like that, you know. So it's just that nice interaction with absolutely.

No, it's nice to get so both ends of the spectrum. You've got one from the Queen, I have a four year old daughter and a seven year old daughter. So I can imagine the types of cakes you.

You get all sorts. Yeah. I mean some barely edible. We tend to get those to sky. Okay.

You've spent many years on the road as a cricketer and commentator

Well, I suppose we were to talk.

About mental health and my first question was going to be, you've spent obviously many years on the road as a cricketer and a commentator and I wondered whether that affects, you know, how your family cope with that, how you cope with that being away and whether that affects mental health at all.

Absolutely. And again, it's one of those things that's sort of taken for granted or at least people who would love my job, of which there are many. I don't think really consider all the aspects of it. that is one. I mean I've missed if I care. I'm doing this for 33 years. so therefore you can roughly halve that in terms of Christmases because we miss every other one. So that's 16 Christmases.

Yeah.

Kids, birthdays, most years in the case of my children because of when they were born. And so it's a very selfish job. It's. I couldn't see myself doing anything else and I've been very lucky, sor. Of second time Round with Emma, who was a journalist herself. My first wife never understood it at all. That's fine. You, I'm not surprised necessarily. But Emma, Emma's journalist and so she, she does get it and she's made a big effort. She comes away often. In fact she's coming to Pakistan drug so I think she's managed to avoid that over the years. But I've told her this time you come to Australia, you come to West Indies, do all these things and you are coming to Pakistan because there's not a huge amount to do. I It's a fascinating country. I'm looking forward to going back. But she, you know she does make that effort and I think you have to you know if it's going to work and so. But you, to answer your question, yes. I mean you go back to your room and you know there's nothing there. Okay. You've had a long day, you're tired, it's usually hot where we go so you're a bit flaked out. But you know when you're away, I mean it has got better. When I first started doing this job, you're away for 130 odd days in Australia there were no mobile phones.

Yeah.

There was no question of young kids coming out. You know, you were there for the long haul.

Yeah.

How it's much better. There is more time. The tours a bit shorter. Moreressed. they are shorter tos there's more of them. but I would say that I'm at home m much more now than I was when I first. When I first started.

You're about to go to Pakistan for a week I believe

Well we're obviously doing this now because you're just about to go to Pakistan I believe.

Yes, I'm going next week. A week? A week today. So I'm in that sort of you know, trying to get things organised. Typical tour in that part of the world. There are a few things that are an issue we sor of know where stay in one place. but you know things will. Things will happen and it'll work out and miraculously we'll pop up on the air and from Muown where it's about 40 degrees at the moment. God knows's going to cope and on we go. That's the cycle, you know, it's what it is.

Cricket correspondent is away on a month-long tour of Pakistan

So how long are you going to be away for then this time?

O this is this only about a month. So this for me is nothing.

Yeah.

and Emma's coming for the last 10 days as well. So this is just a nice trip.

Yeah, but you Say it's only a month, but that's, you know, it's a considerable amount of time. And I was wondering, you know, when you're away for that amount of time, like you say, it's very solitary, I would imagine.

Yeah.

When you, when you go back to your room to do you have any. You see these people on like rights across the world who've like packed monster mun sure loops. Do you have any routines or any, anything that you particularly have to take with you? stay ground.

Well, I tell you, I mean I've what my, my lockdown project was, was playing the guitar. Learning the guitar.

Okay.

I've quite a musical bloke. And so leading on from that, I will, I will bet that I'the first Crickic correspondent ever to take a euphonium on tour. which is what I'm doing to Pakistan because I've joined the melton band after 45 years of not playing any brass instrument. I've taken it. I'I'VE got back into it again. So I used to play the tubo but I didn't. I don't want to play tubo anymore. So I'm playing thehonium which is which is fab. It's amazing because having not literally not touched a musical instrument. I mean I was a music scholar at school playing tuber so I played it a lot. But having not literally touched a brass instrument for 45 years, when the Melton band dropped a band instrument euphonium off, the fingering is the same on a euphonium as it was on a tuber. Every note I knew, I knew exactly the fingering for every note after 45 years because the muscle memory and what you learn when you're young, you know, it stays in there. M I can't rem people s name I met this morning. but yeah, every note, I mean the whole playing it is different. It's a different instrument. But I'm taking my euphlooni because it's very busy when I get back. We've got obviously Christmas coming up. We've got Christmas concerts and playing in carols in Sainsinsbury, that sort of stuff. so I'm going to take the euphonium and I've got a thing you can shove in the bell and it makes it virtually silent. So I'm not going to annoy people in the next door hotel room in Multtan. and there is anything else to do. You know, there is no bar.

Yeah.

so you don't meet Anybody you know, it just. It's a different sort of a tour with a lot of time in the evenings to kill. So I'm taking my euphonium and I shall be playing that merrily away.

Is that. Is that.

Playing a musical instrument clears the mind completely, Jonathan says

Well, I suppose two things do you find that helps your mental health just like that? Creativity, that playing a musical instrument.

Without any doubt. It's the best thing I've done. It's the best thing I've done for years. There's a lot been going on behind the scenes. this last year, jobs been restructured, all those things and the only time really that I haven't thought about it and not really been the way things turned out timing wise I was actually on my own quite a lot. February, March, April with a lot of this stuff going on and the job and stuff. the only time I wasn't thinking about it was when I was playing my phoneium practising because I've had a lot of catching up to do so I've played it quite a lot. But just to do that and then be part of the band to every Tuesday night, you knowah. I can't wait. Yeah. I cannot wait for Tuesdays to come around. You part of the team again. And what I love about them is that I'm Jonathan. I'm Jonathan. Second euphonium. M. You know, I'm not agr'cricket man, anything. They don't give us stuff about that. I'm just second euphonium. I'll play bad notes. I get told off. I'm juste. I'm just treated as one of the band and I absolutely love it. It's the best thing I've done for a very long time and it clears the mind completely. M. You can think about nothing else when you are playing. You know, when you're playing in a band or practising yourself, then there's no room for anything else. And so honestly I just think in my case going back to a musicalment but like with the guitar learning in.

Your instrument, definitely just immerse yourself in it.

Absolutely. And it doesn't clearar the head and you know, we've had a good blow or you know, plucked away for a bit and he put it down. You do feel clear, you know, head. Your head does feel clear.

Ed Aggers speaks about suicide rates in cricket and mental health issues

I never really understood what mental health issues were really until I suspect, well, fairly recently. You know, I know you are aware of suicide rates in cricket and I've lost a number of friends, most recently Graham Thorpe. you know, and it's tragic it's you try and work out why is it that people who I know who are involved in cricket are generally very easy going people. They're usually intelligent people. but that doesn't count for anything does it? You know if you have a mental illness, if you are susceptible to depression it doesn't matter what your background is or, or anything you know it's like anything you know it hits you and it is again a rather unspoken about tragedy of cricket that I think people think I'm guessing but I think part of the problem is that because they are generally you so of grammar school you know they are generally quite well educated bright people who therefore m probably have not been to university or not pushed on their education. They gone straight from school, straight from school to playing professional cricket and so they've got no qualifications as such and they play professional cricket for 15 years or so entertain big crowds, you know, have a lovely time everyone thinks they're wonderful and marvellous. and then suddenly at age 35 with a couple of kids and a mortgage it's gone. Yeah, they've got nothing and they've got no preparation for anything and so I, yeah I mean I'm sure there's many other things aside but that I think is one of the issues that doesn't help.

I wasn't aware of this at all which is bad on my part that and I mentioned when we were chatting earlier that my father in law. I'm going to give a name cheque Eddie. Could you say hello Eddie? That would make his.

Yes, hello Eddie, it's nice to talk to you.

He's delighted that az am I obviously but he's delighted that you're coming on the podcast and it was im oh you can speak to Aggers about the high suicide rate depression and mental health issues with cricketers and I'm like that's not a thing is it? And yeah I think book, book been written about it. It's huge. Yeah, I mean when you look into it you like well how has this passed me by? I wasn't aware that it's like twice as twice the rate of any other sport.

Yeah, it's one of those things that people don't really talk about isn't it? No, that's right. Mental health I say you know I'm a late, I'm a late comer to mental health issues really because although I yes found myself very lonely on tour and stuff at times I didn't put that down to being a mental health issue just Put it down to be being bu. Myself lonely, you know. But maybe these days that would be more of a mental health thing. I don't know. I mean it's, it's a very interesting thing. I mean people say that they, they got, got depressed when they were dropped by England. I get that. But is that depression, affected by the fact that you've been dropped by England because you, that's possibly the end of your career and that's what this, that's what professional sports all about.

Yeah.

Or is that you actual depression which is a mental illness? I don't know. It's such a complicated area, isn't it?

I mean I've been sort of having found this information out fairly recently. I was ruminating with, with Eddie about this and I said, well, they're away from home a long time. But then, you know, you talk about the lions and footballers and other sports as well do similar things and you know, trying to pinpoint one, one particular thing. And I mean he's. I'mnn, I've written it down what he's. Because he used to play cricket and I think this says more about Ed than maybe he would care to let on. But he, he's. He texts me other night and said, do you think that when a batsman is out it's inevitably causes the player to question themselves which results in an abnormal lack of self esteem. They cannot change the result any more than someone missing a crucial penalty. You can't help replaying it in your mind and beating yourself up about it. And like saying people get dropped from. Whether it's the England cricket team, people get dropped from the England football team, from the England hockey team or whoever it is. But there's something, you know, it's. Cricket is a bit different in that you're out there either all day fielding or, you know, I don't know, I'not I've never been a batsman but I would imagine you've got to be mentally alert and then you kind of switching off as kind of, you know, they reset for the next ball and it is a strange sport and whether there was, is something in that, you know, the finality of sort of ruminating going over it in your head as to replay in that shot. Because when you're out, like you say that'that is. That's it.

Well, you're very exposed. You know, I think. Yeah, I don't know. I mean the thought back when I was playing of somebody having counselling because they were dropped. People think people just laugheah but you know, is. It is something that is clearly difficult and what do you say to someone when's out first ball at lod front of 30000m peopleatch against Australia. You know, on the one hand you've got bely tough to play test cricket, otherwise you won't succeed. But on the other hand everyone's human and you know, what does mentally tough mean? I mean, does it m mean be able to. I don't know, it's. Well, as soon as that door is opened into it, the more you sort of. You consider it, don't you? And I mean you do, you do have to be tough. You do, you are out there. It's one of the great things about cricket, you know, when you are batting, you're out there with your mate with 11 hostile, the enemy all around you. and you've got. The two of you are out there against it. You know, it's hard, it's quite gladtorial. It eas. And so I sort of hesitate to use expressions like sort toughens you up these days because thats. I don't know, it's a bit demeaning of people who find it difficult but it is a fact if you can't cope with that, you're not going to succeed. So somewhere in the middle lies the truth.

Yeah, yeah.

Your wife Emma was diagnosed with breast cancer in 2017

I mean you mentioned again a different mental health context but you mentioned your wife Emma has recently been diagnosed with cancer. And I hope you don't mind just mentioning. No talking about that. But again that's, you know, I'veviously I'm going through my own experiences that how that has affected her and your mental health and kind of your outlook on life generally.

I guess it's interesting, isn't it? I mean she. So she was diagnosed in 2017, and it was breast cancer and was. It wasn't a good one and it, it was an aggressive little signone. So fortunately for Emma and for me it, it was the type. This was her too. So it was one that did have actually quite successful treatments. Ok. And I in touchhing wood frantically here, you know, it's gone at the moment, you know, it's gone. So she's had all that. but you're right and that it is only, that's only the start of the process in a way. She's had her. So 17, 18, so 1890. She had a six years clear scan a couple of weeks ago. But she always gets very stressed about that. Obviously every headache she gets, she's got brain Cancer, you know, I don't think that ever goes away. Did it change? It's hard to say for me whether it's changed her.

I think it as. You know it gives you a focus, doesn't it? I. It makes you think. Hang on a minute. Actually I'm immortal after all. this could get me. And so therefore your view at the time of life is bound to be different. And I do think her view of life since has been different. And I mean you talk about. So that cliche way you can do sort of You know, you never know changed my life and then take every day and know all that stuff. I think there is. But I do think there is element of that because I'll never forget and I remember saying it to her the day that she was given her cl. She had. Well, she had six months of chemotherapy which is not nice. then in operation and when the news came back that the. Was all. It was clear and the clear mars and all that. I remember we went to Marks and Spencer to get some food. All things. And I remember Iember saying to her we must never forget how we feel right now.

Absolutely.

This moment.

Because it'd be very easy to spend a few years time to go off. Yeah. Oh we. We're jolly happy. But actually this is beyond that. This was something that. This was an incredible feeling. The like of which I've never experienced before. I must say. Because it was just like you were in a different world. Of course it didn't last. You know, life. You sort of get back into your everyday life again. I mean we look back at it and still obviously talk about that. And we still talk about where she goes, you know, what she's been through and what we went through as a couple.

That's tough. And I mean there is a book to be written if it hasn't been done already about the supporter, the partner. Because you feel utterly helpless. It's very challenging. No one is interested in you at all. And that's fine because you're not the patient as such. But in a way you are a patient. We're going back to that whole mental health issue again actually. Do you know you're in a dark place. Y. I was. You know, I was thinking about her funeral and all this, you know, which is not a great place to be. But there is no interest in you at all. You just had to get on with it. And that's fine because obviously you are not the patient. But I think you are still a Patient. Because what you are dealing with, is pretty grim. I mean, we had a deal. So I got an hour off a day, 06:00 till 07:00, live next door to a pub. So I'd get dinner ready. I was a terrible cook. I've approved a bit. Was terrible cook. And so I'd get dinner ready, then I'd have my r in the pub, come back pretty wrecked.

Y.

Just a release. and they never talked about cancer. they never talk about cricket in there. Y. I'm just one of the village and I just. I come back, ruined dinner, disaster. And there'd be stuff thrown, you know, it was so. But it's just, you know, it's a weird time, isn't it?

There's been talk of my wife Gemma doing an episode about cancer

And it'it.

Is, it is. And so that's how this or podcast kind of started, was episode two is kind of my story. And it's still to happen. We're now 27 episodes in.

I think that's amazing.

There's been talk of my wife Gemma doing an episode for that very reason. In that it's one thing.

Yeah, I think presumably you're obviously very easy, communicative bloke. mean, I've never met you, but, you know, you're not difficult to have a conversation with. I mean, I assume that she's talked to you about what it's been like for her to. She. I mean, you can feel a bit guilty.

Yeah.

Hang on a minute. Put your hand up. Know what about me over here. You know, actually I'm finding crap m as well.

I mean, thought we've talked about this before and that we only really talked about it recently in that we found it quite. I found it quite divisive because, you know, say at the time my daughter was. My youngest was eight months old and my eldest was three. And so I'm thinking of all the things I've got. Like, they gave me four to six months or six months, they said, was it going to be a positive outcome? So I'm thinking I've got like a to do list that I need to get done because I've only. I'm, you know, fixed the boiler, know, just stupid things to make sure that she's not left in the shit when I pop my clogs. And I'm kind of focused on the here and now. It was probably the most mindful I've ever been a think. Whereas she's focused on, well, how the hell am I going to pay the mortgage? What am we going to do? With two young kids who where the dad's died. And so she's kind of focused on the future. What am I going to do? How am I going to deal with the aftermath? And I'm in it, or we're both in it, but I'm kind of dealing with, well, what do I need to do today?

Yeah, you're in different places, aren't you? This is the thing. I mean, she must tell her story because I do think that that part of the relationship is very important because it is difficult and you know, I cried over her consultant several times. she's a lovely woman, and I guess she's used to that sort of thing, to be honest. But when elsese where do you go? Where'd you go and have a cry? Where do you go and get rid of that tension? Well, yeah, I went to the pub, which wasn't probably great, you know, looking back. But what else do you do have to say?

I'll get my plugin about Maggie's. Maggie's for us were, were tremendous and I don't know what we'd have done without them. But, Yes. Yeah, it's

You must have her on.

Yes, yes.

Be honest. I mean, we did talk about it a lot. I mean there was some debate as to whether or not I should mention it on the radio, but I had to because, because I wasn't going to be around, you know. M fortunately, BBC were very good and they, you know, when she was having chemo, you know, I took her obviously. And so that did interrupt a few fair number of games. But I think, I think the BBC and my colleagues are a bit uncomfortable with it. I went on the radio and I said, look, I'm not going to be around for a while because. But I mean. And I hate social media. I hate it with a passion, however, because it's so negative and that really does damage you, that really does get you down. But the support that Emma had, we both had to be fair at that time. All the nice people came out and all the horrid people slunk away into the woodwork and he didn't hear from them. You know, the support we had from people was incredible. M and definitely played a huge part in her being very positive about, the treatment, you know, and she embraced chemo. She said, this is going to save my life. Bring it on. You bring it on. Give it to me. which has to be, if you can, the right way to do it. You have to.

Absolutely.

You have to look at it as being a, you know, a positive thing, I'm afraid. But without it, you know. Well, your chances of you would imagine, less than. Than if you have it. If got. You've got to welcome it in. And was fortunate it didn't really affect her that badly. there's a very low percentage of people who are not really badly affected by chemo and she was one of those. So having got a sort of a Runway ready to the bathroom, I said to the nurse, when's it got to Hitch? Said all I think a third night. I think she said the first dose. So I had a sort of like a Runway lit up to the toilet, bath, everything else, you know, towels and stuff. It didn't happen. The third night I lit the Runway up again. The fourth night nothing happened. Fifth night nothing happened. And in fact she wasn't really. I think she might have been sick only once. she lost all her hair of course. The usual effect. So she was one of the.

I never had any to start with so.

Well, there you go.

I was all right on that front.

Jonathan's wife Emma was diagnosed with cancer last year

She, you know, Beate, you be lucky. Well yeah, I think she probably considered that she has been lucky. A this thing is gone. you know, she had brilliant people looking after her. You know, it'they were lovely too. They were all of them. The three main specialists that she had. the oncologist, the main specialist and the radiographer. All mad cricket fans, Indian background. And they didn't say a word. We first walked in. They only ever talked to Emma, never talked to me. And then of course at the end when it'maybe it's all over, they revealed their hand and I managed to get one up into the country box and for an India game, which was great. The oncologist, a lovey chack called Kieran. So he met all his heroes, Ganguli, all these people, you know. So you try and give something back to theseible people, you know, who are dealing with so much horrible stuff. m and do get. They do get those positive, positive outcomes as well. It must be amazing for them.

Yeah, yeah. Like can say I don't know how they do the job. I don't know how they do the job. But you know, when you go to oncology appointments now, you know, I'm very conscious of the mood of people sat around me who are know, possibly in a. In a similar situation to I was for.

I sat outside the radiography place. when Emma went in for. I think it was her final scam one. So the Marks and Spencer's day and I was sitting there in this familiar little sort of off waiting room type place and there was a mother and daughter there, bothies, they'd been hit by a slaveer. So I assumed it was first day and through tears I said look, I don't know you. I'm just saying to you that a year ago we were sitting where you are in that position. My wife is in there now having the scan that we are 99.99% sure is going to say that. She's clear. it's a process, it's not great. But think in years time you could be sitting where I am and I hope you are. And that was, it was a bit intrusive but I just felt, you know, say it because absolutely.

Sometimes you just have to reach out to people and what you said that ah, hopefully you're in the same position and sometimes that's all you've got is hope.

It is, it is. And you know, you are clearly exceptional. In what? In what? In what you, you have, you are doing.

They can't really tell me why and is frustrating and, and well yes, but.

Also does it matter? You know, you are where you are. Yeah, you know, we go back that thing of, you know, know that corny stuff every day and so on but you know, you are where you are.

here I am talking to you Jonathan.

Well, yeah, well know, but it's true and you're providing hopefully a very valuable service to people and some do give up.

Some people do give up. You know, the chemo ward GRMA was you'd see people there so hunched up and looking awful and terrible and coming in and looking at a real rotten state and you think come on, come on, just try and dig deep. And I know it's, you know, all this be strong stuff is again wrong, you know, again social media with the pump fist and stuff. But it does help if it can be positive. There's a difference between being strong or you know, man up and being positive. Y and I do think that most people can be positive. You reach out and you be positive about whatever situation you're in because actually if you're not then probably you, there's a good chance you're not going to get through it. Whatever, whatever the problem is, you can get into it in a positive upbeat you know, try and meet it head on and give it your best shot. That that has to be the way to do anything, isn't it? Any job, you know, any issues at home, Any marital. All these sort of things that everyone faces in their lives.

No, I think you're absolutely right. And I mean before obviously I was diagnosed. It was my worst nightmare, anybody's worst nightmare to be told that I saw my dad go through it and thought, well, I could never be a strong. You know, using that strong word again. I'm not as strong as him. I would just crumble. And then you're in it and you haven't really got a lot of choice because you just kind of. Yah, exactly. What's the other option?

You just kind of get with it. Close the door. There isn't an option really. I think you have to find your own way. You. I was lecturing people and stuff isn't the answer either. Not meaning to do that. I think you have to find your own way in which you are therefore best prepared to give it your best shot in what. Whatever it is you. We all have our own methods, don't we?

Absolutely.

We can all find. Find a way that puts us in a better place.

Absolutely. Do you mind if we finish with some. Just some quick fire round question?

Yeah, go on. These people can wait. I mean it's only a Pakistan briefing to.

I want to know what your favourite cricket ground is

Well, yeah, but I want to know what your favourite cricket ground is that's much more important.

that's a good question. I mean I like going to Lords. I mean I don't know when this'is going out but I'm going tomorrow for a one day international against Australia which is always a bit special. Although these things are tack on the end. But you know, to go to Lords, it's very easy. It's very easy when you do a job like mine to take a lot of stuff for granted and it's very good. Just sometimes I walk in at Lords. Usually I get there quite early but sometimes I get there with the crowd coming in.

Okay.

Feel the excitement of people have. Wow, look at this. It was much smaller than I thought it was going to. Look at that slope. All these things that we've talked about and you take for granted. Ye and I first played there in 1977. I've been going there regularly ever since. So Yeah, there's a slope. Yeah and that's. This is what it is. You. There's a nursary end and all this stuff. Yah. So it's very stick everyone too. So I mean Lord is obviously favourite. Adelaide is probably my favourite overseas ground. I love going there.

Hm.

it's just a beautiful ground in a lovely city. in a great part of the world. So I always, I always loved going back to Adelaide.

I used to. I used to go out with a woman from St. John's Wood. You could see lords from her from a flat window. Never been to Lordo.

O well, there you go. Put it on your list.

Okay. That wasn't as quick fire around as I thought it was going to be, but.

If you weren't a cricket commentator, what would you be doing

So if you weren't a cricket commentator, what would you be doing?

Oh, crike. I mean, that's a really difficult question.

Musician, by the sounds of things.

Well, I don't know if I'm good enough. I mean, my main hobby is actually flying.

okay.

So I could see myself of having been a commercial pilot.

Y.

Okay, yeah, I'll take that again.

Something that we just switch your mind off and you can go off and just forget about everything else. No contact. So, yeah, I'll take the dogs with. We go to ske nest to the beach and fly most of the time. So that's.

Yeah, okay. Best sledge you ever heard on the pitch?

Well, my best sledge is actually one that I had off the pitch. O It did feature an Australian, and that's usually the best of this. so this is the Andrew Flintoff tour of Australia in, 2006. Seven. We've lost the Ashes. Melbourne, was a great event, the Boxing Day test match. And I leapt out of bed, got at the hotel, onto the street, hailed a taxi, and I jumped in the front seat. And, all I said to this taxi driver was McG. And he looked at me, he said, oh, mate, know. I know who you are. I've been listening to you on the radio. You're agurs, aren't you? I said, well, yes, I am. You quite pleased, actually. That Australian, should recognise me. Just saying. McG M said, he looked at me, he said, mate, he said, you're much less handsome than his sound on the radio. A great line, isn't it?

Only the Aussies.

Yeah.

okay. Would you rather face a bouncer? from Jeff Archer. Joffra Archer.

Sorry, yeah.

Or commentate with the sore throat.

Oh, commentate the sore throat. I've had my fill of bouncers and Stu. It's Horle.

Say.

Yeah, I bet you have.

I'll put up with a sore throat. It is a commentator s curse of a cold.

Yeah.

In a sore throat.

Uh-huh.

Is rubbish because you don't feel well. You know, you sound horrible. Yeah, yeah. That's pretty crap, really.

Okay. And finally, I know you've got to go. Sorry, I've kept you too long.

What advice would you give your younger self, do you think

But finally, what piece of advice would you give your younger self, do you think?

Oh, I think I could. I could probably have worked harder as a cricketer. I could have trained harder.

Do you think?

Yeah, I think so. If I'm being honest.

You took 666 wickets.

Know. But I think. I think I could have played for England more.

Was it three caps?

Yeah, I could have played more than that. It's quite tight competition at the time. I think I could have played more than that. Perhaps. Take yourself terribly. Don't take yourself too seriously. I think something I. I do tend to overthink things and that goes back to the whole mental health issue again in that if you do overthink, I mean, I clearly have a very active mind because that. What makes me able to do what I do. I sit down and I look at cricket and I am able to sort, conjure stuff up, conversations or things to talk about, colour, you know, my brain clearly goes quickly. but that does mean, therefore that I kind of. I can dwell on things, you know, away from that. You and me both, you know. Yeah. I'd love to be able to get rid of that and just go boom and just let it go. just move on and think about nice things or whatever I can find myself. Yeah. You know, issues, problems, thinking things through too much and imagining scenarios that you think, hang on a m minute, that hasn't happened. So why are you thinking about that scenario there? If that happens, if that happens, if that happens, then there we are. And I'm thinking about that and I'm getting very worried about it, but actually none of it's happened. So. Yeah, think. I think probably that you overthinking is, I've got a very good book actually, that I'GOT the other day about that. I just started to read, I think it to Pakistan as all two Euphonian practises, just to try and just. Yeah. Not dwell on stuff.

Dwell on stuff. Yeah.

Yeah. Because you tend to dwell on negative things, don't you?

Yeah.

Things are worrying you.

Yeah.

You never dwell on positive things.

Oh, no, you don't, unfortunately.

Well, maybe if you're a loose end in your. In your hotel room in Pakistan, you could dial into a few episodes of Mind Cake.

Oh, I've not seen that.

No. This podcast.

O. Ah. I thought you. It was a TV programme. I could hope your wife on it.

Well, I will. I will say that you have told her that she should do it.

Yes.

Because's the other. And she'll find it good.

I don't think she should speak. I've got co. We've got a co host called Paul Beeson.

Right.

And I think it would be better if. If he spoke to her.

Yeah, that's good.

Rather me talking to her because I think that could be a bit.

Yeah, I think she'll find it very cathartic.

She had any counselling?

She has had some counselling, yeah.

Just case you're talking, isn't it?

Absolutelying.

And that I think is'that's the big thing. If you can talk about it. I can talk about it openly and honestly. I think you're right. Probably not to do it to you, but to do it to your mate.

Yeah.

I think she'll feel a lot better for having done it.

And telling the world. Yeah.

Ah, it'll be cheerery, it'll be emotional. But it also helped people too. And that's kind of what we're all not well sounds.

Jonathan: Why me and Paul started the podcast is to get the conversation going