Decluttering the Chaos: How Clearing Space Can Improve Your Mental Health

>> Kerry: Yes, as you do. And they were talking about letting go and they were talking about holding on to sentimental items and that when we hold on to sentimental items we're actually in some way keeping our loved one, attached to this world and that you're allowing the past to be in your home rather than focusing on the present. And I had this little doll from my grandma and I've been carrying this thing around for years and years. When I started looking at my sentimental items and thinking about letting those go, that was really hard. I think the initial stages of my minimalist journey was a little easier because when I moved to Queensland I packed up what I could fit in my car, out of a three bedroom home. And as you rightly said, that three bedroom home, whilst it wasn't, it was still a very functional home. It had a Lot of stuff in it. You know, I'm talking. You open cupboards and you can't really see what's inside there. So I packed up that whole house, put it into a storage shed, moved up here with what I could fit in my car with the intention of bringing all my things up later. Two years later, I got a quote. It was a ridiculous amount of money. So I rang a friend and said, just open the garage doors and have a storage shed sale. And she said, do you want to come down and have a look first? I'm like, no, no, I definitely don't want to do that. Just do it. And then over the years there's been things that have popped up that I'm like, oh, my daughter rang me and she's like, oh, do you have that table that I made in year 10? Cause her partner also had made a table in year 10. And I'm like, I'm so sorry, mate, I don't. And the Christmas decorations, like I was keeping Christmas decorations that the kids had made in preschool and their handprints and their artworks and lot like I bought with me the things that I felt at the time were the most valuable. So like the photos, a couple of boxes of the kids memories. So there's things that have cropped up over the years that I'm like, oh, that's. I wish I had that. But I wouldn't change it because yes, she needed that item in that moment. But I can guarantee five years later, now that her household has changed, she would have probably discarded the item as well. so sentimental items I found were really hard because once I considered that doll, I looked around at all the other things that I had and went, okay, we're going to try this process of spending some time with the item, remembering the person. As the nun said, you know, I'm not going to forget my grandma because her doll's not in my house. She still is very much a vivid memory as she was when the doll was in the house.

>> Lee: Yeah, but see, this is the thing, okay? I had this conversation Last Night with Mrs. Crompton whilst we were watching Stacey Solomon in that staceacy Solom is that is like good cop and then you've got Dilly, who's the bad cop and she's the one who comes in and really like slays the stuff. And I think one of the things she said was she'd kept her, I. Where was she kept? She kept like a hat or something'like a cap, say from a show. And she said, oh, but that's when I was. I performed in Cats, the musical and I had the cap, it was like a cat's cap. and she said, well, will you still remember performing in the cat show if you got rid of the cap? And she's like, yeah. She said, well, you don't need the cap then.

People have very different clutter tolerances according to where they live

Which led me to have a discussion with Gemma in that we've got like various mugs, but we've got mugs from our favourite pancake place when we were in Monterey. Now, I can still remember the pancakes, I can still remember the memories with. But do you think I'm going to ditch that panake mu. No, I couldn't. I couldn't bring myself to do it. So I get that it's the memory that is attached to the item rather than. And I think, you know, we spoke about this earlier that I think a lot of it is sentimentality. And how do you, you know, it is. How do you break that link? I guess.

>> Lee Crompton: Sorry, just to caveat that I would say that when it comes to mugs, you could keep those pancake mugs and then ditch two of the other mugs that don't mean anything. Like, you could ditch those, you could ditch another couple of mugs that don't mean as much and hang on to the sentimental ones and you still have the same amount of mugs. You know what I mean?

>> Kerry: So I think that's where people get confused or concerned as well. when they start thinking about decluttering is they think they have to get rid of everything. That's absolutely not the case. So in your case, Lee, with your mugs. and Paul, well done. That's a great piece of advice. Great piece of advice. because it's about keeping the thing that bring you joy and having things in your home that bring you joy that are functional and that also don't fall out on top of your head when. When you open the cupboards.

>> Lee: Tperperware m are the bane of my life.

>> Kerry: Well, apparently Tupperware is closing down.

>> Lee: Oh, good. Yeah, I'm pleased about that. Sorry if any of our listeners work for Tupperware'been made redundant.

>> Kerry: And that's just hear say so. Yeah. Don't. It may be just in Australia.

>> Lee: Yeah.

>> Kerry: We will create a worldwiden epidemic with people going writing on Tupperware.

>> Lee Crompton: You heard to hear first, folks.

>> Kerry: Yeah, it's definitely not about throwing everything out and people have very different clutter tolerances. So for me, I have quite a low clutter tolerance, but certainly not to the extreme. Of there's a gentleman over in Europe and he owns in entirety. He owns 112 things in entirety.

>> Lee: Wow.

>> Kerry: And it takes him 13 minutes to pack up a house and he fits it on one of those little push trolleys. And the majority of his items are actually his photography equipment. So he includes memory cards, he includes charges. He includes. And he's got 112 items.

>> Lee: Wow.

>> Kerry: So his clut tolerance is extremely low.

>> Lee: The woman on Stacy Solomon last night had 90 socks.

>> Kerry: 90. Well she might, might find the partners at some stage.

>> Lee: He's so he's only got 112 things. She had 96 odd socks. Anyway, sorry to carry on care.

>> Kerry: And so by understanding your clutter tolerance because some people, if you put them in a minimalist environment that would actually cause them stress and anxiety. M so once you understand where your tolerance level sits, then you can start making decisions about the things that are around you. M. I think that's one of the really important first steps when I work with a client is get them to go through a self assessment to understand what level of tolerance works for you.

>> Lee: I was going to say, have you seen the film Heat?

>> Kerry: No.

>> Lee: Hopefully Paul has, I would say Robert De Niro has a very low tolerance in that film because what's the famous line from that film? Don't like have anything that you can't turn your back on in 30 seconds and be gone. Pack up your, pack up your trolley with 112 things and You can get off you go, off go.

>> Kerry: And you can have different clutter tolerances in different areas of your, of your living spaces too. You might be very, you might have a lower clutter tolerance in your house. But in your workshop, if you have a workshop or an art studio or whatever it might be your hobby area, your clutter tolerance might be higher because you're going to need more things in that space. If you love to cook, you might have a higher level of items in your kitchen. So it's really about understanding what brings you joy, what brings functionality to your life without it having a negative impact. And clutter is not just physical either. So something that I wanted to make sure that my business looked at was digital clutter, emotional clutter, financial clutter, time clutter. All of these things weigh heavily on our minds. And a lot of the time it can be some very simple changes. you would probably understand. Le and Paul, I'm not sure if you have children, but I can imagine your schedule would get crazy at some points in time. And we never take a Moment to step back and go, okay, let's have a look at this schedule and see if we can refine it a little bit. We just find ourselves in this constant wheel of trying to chase our tail and get everything done.

>> Lee: Say that my tolerance for hair product clutter is far lower than Paul's. I just, I just can't tolerate it Kerry. I won't, I won't have it in my life.

>> Kerry: No, it's, it's been quite a journey. So as I think we spoke briefly just a moment ago that I thought my stuff defined me as a person. So I've had the good fortune, I guess is a way to put it, of experiencing many challenges across my life. And when life settled down I thought that if I accumulated things and if I bought the best of things and if I had all the things that you could possibly have that would say to the world that I am a well adjusted and functioning member of society. And then I realised that a financially that's not a great decision. And the buzz that you get from going out and having a shopping splurge is very short lived because very shortly something that you do have to pay for and it is actually important to you, the kids need something or whatever it might be, then all of a sudden you realise the funds that you spent. I remember one day I spent $600 on cds.

>> Kerry: who needs $600 worth of cds in one shopping spree? They had a deal at the, I think it was Harvey Norman that if you spent a certain amount you got a gift card or something. I went there to replace my microwave because the microwave was $600 away from a $200 gift card. And we happened to look at the CDS and I had my I had my daughter with me and we picked out a couple of cds and the next thing I know I've got 600 cds, $600 worth of cds in my basket. I walked away with my $hundred gift card and in the moment that the logic of that didn't even register on my radar. Like you're spending $600 to get a $200 gift voucher.

>> Lee: you'd already spent hundred dollar hundred on the mic. You spent thousand $200 hundred to get a $200.

>> Kerry: Well a thousand, wow, $1,000 to get. So every 500. They would give you $100 gift card.

>> Lee: Did the se. Inst into the car?

>> Kerry: they did. And then I got home and spent probably about half an hour enjoying going through and remembering what it was that I bought, and then spent the next however long trying to figure out where were these CDS actually going to live.

>> Lee: In the, ah, car. When you, when you drove, when you just packed up all your possessions in a car, did ocds make it into the car?

>> Kerry: They actually did.

>> Lee: They did.

>> Paul: Wow.

>> Kerry: so I had a Holden commodore at the time and, the CDS were in a suitcase. So, you know, like your large suitcase that you take on overseas trips if you're going away for a month or whatever. so they were all in. In there. And I carried those CDS around for quite a few years, and they lived underneath my bed. I never actually used them because we live in a world of Spotify and, you know, music that's on our phone. So I, didn't even own a CD player and yet I still hung on to these cds and then I was looking at, I purchased a property and I was looking to move, and I dragged the CDS out and there was a beautiful layer of dust across the top of the suitcase. And I opened these things and I really struggled to give them away because I thought, oh, so CDS and books were really hard, along with the sentimental items, but cd, because I always imagined having a house where I'd have a floor to ceiling library with, you know, big velvet curtains and a ladder that I could scoot across all of the, all of the books. And books take up a lot of space. And how often are you rereading any of these books? so I eventually did give the CDS away to a friend who looked after airbnbs. She took the CDS and then just distributed them into the airbnbs so that people on holidays could be exposed to maybe some different music that they hadn't listened to before. yeah, yeah, so that I thought that. And the same with the books. I found a home for a lot of the books through either women's shelters or airbnbs. Somewhere where they could go and somebody else could treasure them.

Based on the chat with Cary, what do you think is his main music genre

>> Lee: I have a question for Paul. You know, when we. You said you can sometimes work, walk into people's houses and be judgmental about the clutter. I want you. Based on the chat that we've had so far with Kery, what do you think is the main music genre that Cary bought? Spent $600 worth on of CDs. What's her, music genre of choice, Paul, because he's a muso. You see, he likes all this stuff. So purely judgmental. What do you think? What you going for? Because I've got this, I've got this image now. I'm not saying that that heavy rock would be my guess, but if you're going to give these, you know, CDS to Airbnb, there's these people in Australia in Airbnbs with like Iron Maiden and, and Death Leopard. That's given you a bit of time to think. Go for it and then we'll see if you if you're right.

>> Lee Crompton: I'm going to say a mixture of 90s indie and pop.

>> Lee: Wow. Was I closer with Kiss and Black Sabbath?

>> Kerry: You were kind of both close. I have a really eclectic taste in music. So it kind of goes from Beethoven to Metallica.

>> Lee: Nice.

>> Kerry: And everything in between. So it's probably easier. Like I, love rhythm and blues. I love country, I love some heavy metal. I love the classics like the 80s and 90s, 70s and a little bit of pop from you know, the 2000s. And so yeah, I had, I had quite a. When you're choosing hundred dollar six worth of cds, you can't stick to.

>> Lee: One genre, a broad range if you're.

>> Lee: Going to spend that much money. Okay.

>> Kerry: Absolutely.

>> Lee: A point each. Kerry, would that be fair?

>> Kerry: Yeah, I think so. I think so.

>> Lee Crompton: Even Stevens? Even.

>> Lee: Even Steven.

>> Kerry: Yeah.

>> Lee: Not sh. Stepven.

>> Lee Crompton: no.

I have a question about how you approach your work with a client

I have a question about I guess how you approach your work with a client. So you've already kind of touched on the fact that you do a sort of assessment with your clients to kind of. Obviously every client that you're going to work with is going to have a different, experience. But is there any way to tell us about a typical approach that you would have with a client? Or is it so different for every client that you can't quantify it in that sort of way?

>> Kerry: no, I think you can. In the very first instance, I will either go to their house and meet them or generally I like to like take them out for a coffee so that it's a very non confronting and neutral ground because remembering that these people are probably living with quite deep shame and embarrassment and anxiety and fear and uncertainty, around what's going to happen. They may think that they're ready to start or they may even just be barely thinking about it. So I take them out for a, coffee and we just have a chat for half an hour or an hour so that they can get to know me. So, so that I can get to know them. And we might talk about all manner of things other than the state of their house or what things they've got to, what their goals are for, where they want to move to. I think I draw a lot on my experience as a psych nurse and a behaviour management specialist in that arena. As a community psych nurse, you have around about an hour or an hour and a half to go into someone's home, build rapport and trust and then elicit some really personal and deep information from person. So in the first instance, my only goal is for that person to feel like I am the right person to help them. that they have a connection with me, that they can see that I'm not just going to come in and steamroll them. I need them to know that I'm there for them. and the best way that I've found to do that is just spend a bit of time talking about whatever, and then slowly bringing in some questions, some gentle questioning around why they're meeting with me, where are they at, how is things going? So it's a bit of a slow burn at the start, I was going.

>> Lee: To say, because I think stereotypically you could say that people who are. Who are hoarders or untidy are, inadvert comments, lazy. But, I think, you know, I think that is a misconception because I think that clutter can be a sign of something much deeper. Whether that's trauma, whether that's anxiety or whatever it is. I mean, it was interesting in what you said earlier that, you know, a lot of instances where you go into places and they've got a lot of cleaning products. I remember we moved into house first. House'moved to do in Scotland and it was a mess, but what they left behind were bottles and bottles and bottles of cleaning. And the irony wasn't lost on us. But, yeah, I mean, that's something that. I think there is. There is something deeper than I just hoard stuff because, you know, that's just the way I am. I think it's. Well, you tell us, is it? You normally find it as a connection to something else deeper.

>> Kerry: Oh, definitely. it'it's. Very rare and it's. You're right, Lee, that it is a misconception that people that hoard, how they're lazy, they don't care, they're just messy people. Generally, you'll find that it's linked to something much deeper than that, whether it be similar to me and I thought it defined me as a person. it's only been recognised as a mental disorder since the early 90s, actually, and it sits on the spectrum of compulsive disorders. I mean, in the research world, it's still very early days and there's still not a lot of people that are specialists in the field. But when you start looking at the figures of what the impact of boarding is in the UK, we're talking about 2 to 5% of the population. It's very similar numbers in Australia. So under the age of 50, we're talking one in 40 people, and over the age of 50, we're talking 1 in 20. Wow, that is a significant problem. And I think since COVID when we hear hoarders, we think of this home that is just filled floor to ceiling and there's probably some squalor and there's rubbish. But now that we've got the emergence of Timu, Amazon, Alibaba, we went through, and particularly in the uk, like, you guys were locked down for a very long time and there was a lady that. The only interaction that she had with the world because she had, agoropphhobia, so she was unable to go outside and so she would shop from her bed. So she had the interaction with the. With the Internet and then when the postman came to deliver, she would have that very short interaction as well. So it's very much linked to a deeper emotional or mental health connection rather than just somebody choosing to be lazy.

>> Lee Crompton: It's an interesting thing that, as well, in the kind of age we live in, like you say, it's so easy to buy stuff online, but we also live in an age, a sort of fast fashion kind of age, where you've got like, like you say teu and Sheen, and even on the high street, things like Primark and these shops where everything is so cheap that you can just go out and buy, like, you know, t shirts or £2. You can buy 5t shirts for a tenor, and then a couple of weeks later, when they've inevitably shrunk or got ripped because the quality is so poor, you go, it was only a tenor. I'll go out and do that again. But then you suddenly got 10 T shirts in your wardrobe and then a couple of months later you do the same and then you've got 20 T shirts in your wardrobe. And it's. We live in an age where stuff so cheap that you can just buy and buy and buy, but, you're not buying something to replace something else, you just adding to adding to what you already have. Exactly. There doesn't seem to be an end in sight. And maybe it's because some things are so cheap and easy to get a hold of. Now, it's no wonder that when you can buy stuff at a click of a button, you're not even thinking about what you already have because it's just flashed up in front of you and you just buy, bye, bye, bye, bye.

>> Kerry: And then correct. And you get that, you get that dopamine hit and then the parcel turns up and you get another dopamine hit from opening it. And then, and then you see it and, I mean, we're all guilty of having something in our homes or something in our wardrobe, like the tag still on it, or it's never actually been used for its intended purposes, or it's. You've opened it and then you've never really used it at all. We can all relate to that. and now add to that equation, if that shopping or that buzz is something that fulfils a need that's missing in your life. So we're very familiar with alcoholism and drug addiction and gambling and eating disorders, and this is no different. People are purchasing these things and hanging on to these things because they're fulfilling a need. a lot of the time with hoarders, they're actually trying to avoid waste. they're trying to make sure that every item is utilised in some way and they'll hang on to things even if there's no visible reason as to why. So a dirty teddy bear that's got an ear missing. Well, a child might want that in the future without being able to really see and recognise the logic of a child's not going to want a dirty, damaged teddy bear. But they have a really hard time throwing things out because, some. The emotional attachment to that thing. Like your cups, Lee. One.

>> Lee: Listen, my wife, my wife had to make a TU intervention because I was just. Oh, I'll just get that. It's only £3 or just get that as only £6 or any. So, yes, my, my wife has had to make a team of intervention. But what I was going to say as well is that since watching Stacey Solomon and the rule is, once Dilly's come in and cut the things, it's one in and one out. So if you, you can only get another T shirt if you get another, you know, if you, if you've got rid of a T shirt. And what I find quite interesting in where we've gone through because I've got my label maker now and.

>> Kerry: Oh, very good.

>> Lee: We've, we've put. So I think, and this is really nerdy in a. What's it way, but when you've got like, just, especially with the girls, you've got just drawers full of clothes, you don't really know what you've got. So if you put that into a canvas box of T shirts, leggings, you know, long sleeve T shirts, whatever, you suddenly go, oh, hang on a minute, she's got like two fleeces but 15 T shirts or what, whatever it is. And you can suddenly see the differences between. It's not just a random drawer of clothes, you can go, well, actually, no, she does need more, whatever, leggings. But Jesus Christ, for the, God's sake, don't buy any more T shirts because you can ram them in the thing. So even stuff like that, like say, organising and I do love the, I do love the label maker, but yes, I've been from Timu.

>> Kerry: Yes, that sounds like you should have been M. And that's's, that's it. That's a good wife that you have there. That can, that canm, curb your teamu spending with the labelling.

>> Kerry: But if we, if we have a look at the national debt, there's a reason that, you know, our credit card debt is so high, because people don't just buy the canvas boxes from Timu. And Timu is geared towards making you spend more. Like you have to go through that spinny thing and you get discounts and if you buy four things, you'll get this and that. you know, people don't have a lot of chance here. You know, if it's not £3, it's, you know, buy three of these things and we'll give you an extra one.

>> Lee: Yeah.

>> Kerry: which is. It's something that when hoarding disorder comes into it, they find it really hard to say no to free things. A lot of the time, inadvertently family and friends are adding to the behaviour because they go, oh, I know. That this person loves to collect teapots. For instance, I have some decorative teapots. I'll just see if they want them. And for these people, being able to say no is like not breathing. I had a client that I worked with that she worked at a op shop. So you can imagine when I first went there, there were all these pieces of furniture and bits and pieces with little sticky notes that said keep for keep for X. And the intention was that she was going to restore them at some stage. This person doesn't have the ability to do that, but she couldn't say no. And so I think that's a really mindful thing for anyone that's listening. if you do have someone that you're concerned about, about the amount of items that they're starting to collect is try and curb that behavur of, oh, I know you love teapots. I have some teapots. Would you like them? Because they're never going to say no. They will always say yes, for example, or la a mug especially.

Kery, you mentioned organisational styles, I think just a minute ago

>> Lee Crompton: Kery, you mentioned organisational styles, I think just a minute ago. Then we kind of got a bit sidetracked. Could you tell us a bit more about organisational styles? Because I'm quite intrigued to see what the different styles might be.

>> Kerry: so some people, like me, I love to have clear spaces, so I don't want my benches. And like, if I've got a shelf, it's got one thing on it. So I like to have things organised in their containers, but in behind a cupboard. But when you open that cupboard, you can see everything that is in there. It doesn't matter to me if it's a opaque container or if it's a wicker basket. as long as it's got a label on it and I know what's there. However, for some people, they like to have all of their things out and around them. It's almost like an artistic design. and their things become a part of the house and a part of the character of the house. Some people, are similar to me and they like to have clean surfaces. But don't open the cupboards because in the cupboards everything will fall out on you. And then you have different categorization styles. So for me, I'm okay with like a larger basket and I'll put, let's say stationary in there. Whereas some people take it to a really minute degree and they will have a container for pens, they will have a container for erasers, they'have a container for sticky tape or whatever. It might be. So it's really important to understand how do you like to have your things available to you and why is that? So for the people that like to have their things on display, there's a real fear that if they can't see them, they'll forget that they're there. And for someone like yourself, le with children, you know, you, you don't want a basket in the pantry. One has chips, one has biscuits, one has whatever it is that the kids snack on. You just probably want a bigger basket with a label that says snacks.

>> Kerry: and you don't want toa have to take the time of lifting LS and putting things in a nice organised fashion that I would imagine that for a lot of people with children that they just want a big open container that they can come home from the shopping and dump the snacks into that container and then the kids can grab it, they can pull out what they want and it's easy for the kids to do as well. So I think understanding how people organise how they see their things, because I could go in and I could organise a house the way that I think my house is organised and I could be completely off the market and it's never going to work for them and then the system is going to fail. So organisational style is just as important as understanding your clutter tolerance, which is also just as important as understanding the psychology and the emotional attachment behind your items.

>> Lee: Yeah, you said I'm doing You made a comment about something along the lines of I'm doing a house at the minute and I'd say it was a level two. And I was just. We didn't get into what a level 2 was or how many levels there are, whether it's kery scale or whether it's a wider known scale. So yeah, maybe talk a bit about that.

>> Kerry: so I think it's very much a carry scale. there are other professionals that work with hoarders that will talk about levels and it's really just to give a gauge of how bad the situation is. So for me, a level two is I can open the front door, I can make my way through the house, but with very, very narrow walkways, there wouldn't be any of the rooms wouldn't be functional for the purpose that they're intended. there would be little nest spots, I guess. So there might be a spot in the lounge room that you could see that someone could be using that area as a sitting area. Now, to understand what I would consider a level one, that's where you're not getting through the front door. You're having to either come through a window, you're actually crawling over items to get to wherever you need to be.

>> Kerry: Yeah, I did, yes. Yeah. There was no other option.

>> Lee: Was that part I didn't realise you, Did'house.

>> Lee Crompton: Was.

>> Kerry: It looks beautiful. Yeah. Look. Look how beau beautiful it looks.

>> Lee Crompton: Now this one, I've got nothing.

>> Kerry: It's really quite heartbreaking to see some of these homes to then talk to the people and once you've built that rapport and. I'm so sorry. Can you hear the kookaburras?

>> Lee Crompton: I can, yeah.

>> Lee: That is.

>> Kerry: I'm really sorry.

>> Lee: I'JUST.

>> Kerry: Shut the window.

>> Lee: No, it's fine. Thought I thought Paul was doing some, like, strange gurgling thing.

>> Kerry: No, it's the cookerurs. Of course it is.

Storage items are usually another big one that I find

Welcome to Australia.

>> Lee: There's another first. You hear it here for'our first kookaburra we've had on min cake.

>> Kerry: Oh, I lost where I was. levels.

>> Lee: Levels twos and ones and levels choos and ones.

>> Kerry: and so, in speaking to the people, once you get to the point where they're opening up to you, like the frustration and the shame and the embarrassment of their situation, you know, that's what the cleaning products are about. The intention is there. They know on a deeper level that this is not okay for them. storage items are usually another big one that I find. you know, you'll find dozens and dozens of storage boxes or containers or labelers or. Because the intentions there. But it just becomes so big and so overwhelming, they don't even know where to start. M. You know, a level three house would be. You can. You could basically use the house as it's intended, but all the surfaces are covered. The floor would have some stuff on it. But you can. You can kind of navigate the house hold easily down to kind three then.

>> Lee: You don't watch we again, I think it's before you turned up Poy that you don't watch much telly Carrry. No you. What about films? Have you seen. Have you seen Harry Potter? Was that which is the Harry Potter film where as soon as they touch like a cup it like multiplies into.

>> Kerry: Oh yes, that's like that's in that room. In the room when they're looking for.

>> Lee: They're looking for whatever the thing is. Yeah, yeah well that's like my king.

>> Lee Crompton: For a horcrux or something aren't they?

>> Lee: Yeah they re always looking for.

>> Kerry: Correct. Yeah.

>> Lee: yeah that's. Well that's. That was based Your MU room J.K. rowling based that on my mug room.

>> Lee Crompton: Just loads of pancake based mugs.

Do you have to physically help your clients declutter their homes

Yeah it's interesting though talking about that kind of the psychology behind that because people like some of your clients obviously know that they need to try and declutter their houses. They're taking the first step in buying the cleaning products or buying the boxes but ultimately it just adds to the clutter that they already have because it's too overwhelming to even make a start. Do you have to physically go in and sit with them and actually help them start to pack things up or box things and organise it? Do you take a more hands off approach and let them find their way with advice or.

>> Kerry: It depends on the client. For some clients they will want to be there. For others they don't want to be there. Some will want to have no involvement at all. I have a client that I'm working with that I'm doing all of the hands on work and I just send photos of things that I'm not too sure of or I'll group things together and send them a photo and say okay tell me what you would like me to keep out of this.

>> Kerry: Depending on the level of permission that I've been givenivingeah so it. You'd be quite surprised that you'll walk into a home that's got things from floor to ceiling but I can nearly guarantee you that that person because it hoarding kind of goes in layers as well so you'll have the very top layer. People will generally know what they've got. Really it's really, it's really quite amazing. So with this particular client what I asked them to do was I said okay well on the first day I'm going to start on the entranceway and the hallway and the kitchen. Can you write me some notes? And so I turned up on the first day and she had eight Pages of notes.

>> Lee Crompton: Wow.

>> Kerry: of items that she wanted to keep, items that she was happy to discard. And so I work off the notes and then anything that I come across that I go, oh, I'm not too sure. I'm not comfortable to make a decision on that. I will then just take a photo and send that across for people that want to be there with me. You have to be really mindful of decision fatigue. So the human brain is only capable of making decisions for a period of time and remembering also that whilst these people are making these decisions, they may be experiencing levels of anxiety, distress, sadness, anger, that they didn't expect. So you can be as ready as you like. So, Paul, I'm looking at your bookshelf and you might, you might call me and say, okay, that bookshelf has to go. And then when I come in and you might be, you might think that you are absolutely ready. The whole lot can go. And then I come in and we start going through it and like what Lee was saying about his pancake mugs, all of a sudden an emotion will come up for you and you'll go, oh no, hang on, can't. I can't get rid of that book that came from when I was backpacking in Canada or whatever it is. And that'll be something that will come out of left field and it will surprise you. So I think it's very much client based. I have had clients where they've started with me and then they've gone, I can't do this. I'm just going to, I'm going to go away for the day or I'll just step outside or we have to take a break. And then I have others that are really proactive and they're just grabbing more stuff than what I am and they're just getting rid of it. A lot of the time you'll find that that hoarding involves a lot of rubbish. I had a client who wanted to recycle cans, kept all the cans in their boxes in the house and they never actually made it downstairs.

>> Lee: So rubbish is an actual rubbish rather than actual rubbish. Right, said Fred. Cds. That's sort of not that correct actual rubbish.

>> Kerry: So it might be bottles, it might be bags of magazines or boxes that come from the medication. This is where that not wanting to be wasteful comes in. They try and avoid waste. They see themselves as quite environmentally friendly because I'm going to recycle these things. But the things never actually get recycled.

>> Lee: My wife does that with contact lenses. You Know the plastic thing that you, the amount of. She never throws them away. Does my nut in. She never throws them away. And we opened up a drawer and she's like kept a bag and just adding and adding, well I'm going toa recycle them. But it's like probably two years worth of those, you know the plastic ye myner.

>> Lee Crompton: My partner wears some as well. So we, when we get a bag full we take them to whichever optician it is and they, they take them and recycle them.

>> Lee: Well you never got around to doing the recycling bit.

>> Kerry: Yeah. And so the intention is there, the good intention is there and that's a bit of a double sided coin as well because by the time ah, that someone like me comes in and if we're talking you know, tonnes and tonnes of things that we're now putting into landfill, it's the opposite side of the coin of being environmentally friendly.

>> Lee: Batteries is another one. We've got boxes of batteries that we've kept that have never, never been to the shop to recycle them.

>> Kerry: Yeah, I can see in your, a lot of recycling trips for the batteries and for the little contact lens covers, you won't be able to help yourself.

>> Lee Crompton: No, what's pleasing now is that a lot of shops and supermarkets do have better recycling facilities. So you can recycle old plastic bags. If you go to like a B and Q, which's like a hardware store here, you can recycle small electrical goods and batteries and things like that, you know, so if you've got a charger that doesn't work, you can just nip to your local shop and dispose of them safely and you know, whatever. So from a recycling point of view societies are kind of getting better at giving you options to get rid of some of this stuff. But it doesn't mean that people will take advantage of that though.

>> Lee: Hence you could just store them in your house and look at them and.