What's Your Battery At? Men's Mental Health & Suicide Prevention with Martin Melly (Men Matter Scotland)

Men Matter Scotland asks people to write down their mental health battery

Lee : Hello, everybody, and welcome to another slice of Mindcake, when this week we have the privilege of meeting Martin at, Men Matter Scotland. How are you, Martin?

Martin : Very good, thanks. How are you, Lee?

Lee : I'm good. I've, I've checked in. I was asked at the door to write down my battery health.

Martin : Yes.

Lee : Which I thought was to do with my phone. But if you want to talk about that before we even start with the chat, no worries.

Martin : The amount m of people that start pulling their phone out and look at their phone battery when they ask that. But what we come up with since we sort of started is in Glasgow and Scotland, basically that how you doing? Is basically just a hello. all right. Nobody really answers it. So what we try and do is ask that second question, how you really. And we form that and what's your battery at? So that's. What's your mental health battery as a percentage, it just means when somebody comes in, they're checking in with themselves and going, how am I feeling the day? And putting down the, the battery as a percentage. And it means we can get a gauge of how they're feeling. If somebody's a bit wary about asking for a chat or asking for help MD that's under 30%, we'll grab them straight away for a chat. And it just gives us an idea, of gets people to cheque in with themselves, but also gives us an idea of where they're at. So it's just like a phone battery. If you're flying high, fully charged, you're up 80, 90, 100%. If you're struggling in the red, you're 30% or below. Ah, it's just how they are feeling on that day.

Lee : I think it's brilliant. It's the first time I've ever been asked to do. Sets out exactly what you're about. Do people cheque out as well? So when they leave.

Martin : Yeah, yep. So they put their battery in when they leave as well.

Lee : See whether there's any improvement.

Martin : They have an idea of an improvement or if something's happened, something's. I hate the word triggered someday and one of the classes or something. Then we can just give them a phone and see. I'll see them next time they come in. Everything okay? Senior battery went down a bit or, we can just keep an eye on people.

Lee : Yeah, it was good. It reminds me of a conversation we had with Alistair Campbell where he said that he gives himself a grade and he. And he rates himself every morning, writes it down 10 being unattainable happiness and 0 being suicidal.

Martin : Right.

Lee : And actually he says if he's, he's, he's happy if he's about a five or a six, seven or eight, he knows he's a. He's on the verge of. He's a bit too hyper and he knows there's going to be a crash after the high. So he tries to keep himself at a 6 or 7. But similar, similar thing to what you're doing here. And, I think, you know, there's a lot to be said for just like you say, just having that moment to cheque in with yourself.

Martin : Yeah.

Lee : And see how you are and what, how you're doing.

Martin : I try to keep myself at 90, give myself that room for improvement, but also realise you're coming in. Any troubles get sort of left at the door. But we all always talk about stuff that's going on in our lives in here. But I was 90 this morning. But now that you've had Alistair Campbell on and I'm feeling a bit nervous about this with the guests.

Lee : No, he wasn't. You sure?

Lee : Right. Right.

Men Matter is a talking group where guys will come and discuss issues

Okay, let's get into this then, because I've been very kindly offered to come in at 11 o' clock for one of your sessions. So we're going to start this then we'll take a break to do one of your. Is it a talking therapy session?

Martin : Talking group.

Lee : Talking group.

Martin : That's how Men Matter started. We was a dad's Matter group to start with and then it was Men Matter. But what the. What's been there since they started in 2019 is a talking group where guys will come and what we do is we'll get the chairs sort, of round in a circle. Every day somebody chairs it and has questions. So we always have. The first three questions are the same. First up is what's your battery at? We just cheque in every day. The next question we ask is, how's your week been? And then that's followed by anything to get off your chest. We start with those three questions and then we'll change up the next three, four, five questions every week just to get the guys thinking. But what we do with it is we have a ball as well. So we pass the ball around. Whoever has the ball speaks, nobody interrupts them. Ah. And there's no advice given. It's just a chance for guys to speak. If you don't want to speak, you just pass the ball on. Some people just want to come in and sit, that's fine. So that's what we do. So it'll be, what's your battery at? Ball gets passed around, everybody gives it, and then on to the next question. And it, gets guys in and around other guys talking about what's going on in their life, talking about what they need to get off their chest, and hopefully it starts to become the norm that I've got issues, he's got issues, but we're both in here talking about it, and you can start to relate to people and see that other people have got stuff going on in their lives as well. And sometimes we convince ourselves we're the only person in the world with the problems we have. I've done that in the past. So it's good to get guys around other guys talking and understanding that everybody's going through different stuff. Some are in better positions than others, but just gets us into that environment where our own guys talking about guys.

Lee : No, absolutely. And I think there's. That's a huge thing as well that I. I found in this podcast for the last however many years, is that when you're in whatever malaise you're in, for whatever reason, that can be a very lonely place. And you think that you're the only person that feels like that or is going through that. And everybody else's life, you see on social media, they're having a lovely time. And there's that comparison, isn't there? And you go, it's only me. It's only me. So if you hear other people going, well, actually, I feel about that. And you go, oh, it's not just me. And I think that there's a huge weight to be lifted just by knowing that other people are going through similar things.

Martin : Yeah. And just on that, I always remember when I struggled a number of years ago, but I was doing a podcast with a mate just talking about it. And I remember talking about that comparison culture. So he's a good mate of mine, but he didn't know I was struggling because I didn't tell MD and then got everything sorted and was telling him about it. And I was saying, I was looking on social media and saying, in my mate, I seen you. At the time, he was living in Barcelona. He was on a rooftop pool posting all these pictures. I'm struggling, with depression, and I'm looking and seeing you on a rooftop pool. And he's going, shows you how social media is not real. Because he said at that point he hadn't long been over living there, and he was the loneliest he's ever been in his life. He was Putting up these pictures. I'm presuming he's having a great time. Then I see the next person having a great time and I'm just looking and going, oh, everybody's doing brilliant and I'm struggling here. So. Shows you why social media is not real and that the importance of talking. Because once you start talking, going, how are you? I know, great actually. And then we go, all right, everything looked all right and it's a powerful thing.

Men Matter Scotland has helped thousands of people overcome depression and suicidal thoughts

Lee : Let's get into Men Matter Scotland. Extraordinary work. You've given me a brief tour when I've arrived. Headline numbers, 4,000 registered members. 500 attendees at the hub each week, 2,100 people with suicide ideation made safe. Two and a half thousand hours of free counselling delivered annually. Before we get to all that, remarkable numbers. But before we get to all that, what was going on in Martin 's life in 2022? What led you to make that first step inside those doors? Because you've been here, what, four years now?

Martin : Yeah, for only four years at the end of this month, time flies. So for me it goes a bit further back than that. At, a time in my life I was really struggling. There was certain circumstances that happened within a 18 month period where the people I was closest to all seemed to. Things started to go wrong and I went through a, big battle depression. Yeah, that sometimes I didn't think I was going to get through, but I did manage to get through that. I got some help and support at the time and I was really lucky. So I'm a big football fan.

Lee : I'm not gonna ask what team.

Martin : The best team when it comes to

Lee : Glasgow Kid of Mr. Harris,

Martin : the best team. The team at the top of the league at the end of the season usually. So I follow my team and there were points when I was really struggling where I was in a full football stadium and felt the loneliest guy in the world. I got to a point where I was getting myself better. I was going a cognitive behavioural therapy every week and I put, for the first time in my life, I put 100% into myself and I started to slowly but surely get better. And one day I went into the CBT and I was going to say to the women at the end, I don't think I need to see anymore. But before I said that, she said to me, I don't think I need to see anymore, but always be here. And I walked out of there and it was the first time in my life I really felt happy and content within Myself and I was going home and I was looking back and going, what's different? And nothing was really different. The circumstances were all the same around the people I cared about. At the same job, at the same car, same pal, same house, same hobbies. Life was the same. The thing that was different was how I was thinking. I no longer felt negatively, thought negatively about my situations and I no longer thought negatively about myself mainly and no longer beat my up and I no longer hated myself. I'd learned to like myself, respect myself, then love myself. And from that point on I decided I don't want people to feel like I did. That guy in the football stadium. It felt the lonely sky in the world. So I went away and done a couple of week courses, done some studying. My pal, he's been telling me about a charity that his cousin had set up. I do my m own podcast and we'd given them some stuff, he'd given them some advice on how to start up a podcast. So I kept an eye on it. And it just so happened that one day job, went up from, in Mata, Scotland. I applied for it, went for it and like yourself, I was given a tour of this place and I was like I need to be here and made it work and that's been me ever since. Four years later.

Lee : Wow, you're still here.

Martin : Aye. So that's me. I just, I don't want MD to feel like I did. So that's what I do is I try and help people.

Lee : Absolutely.

What does male loneliness look like and how can we change that

What I was going to say was you say in your bio that at times you felt like the loneliest man in the world. You just said that in the football stadium. I don't know if you've seen. We have had the well being person on Rachel Smith from Wolf's Football Club who did a massive thing on, on that and the, the one that went viral was the Norwich. Yeah, they're very good. But I just wondered what does male loneliness look like and how can we change that?

Martin : It's a complex thing.

Lee : It's not a five minute answer, is it?

Martin : No. So many different ways to look at it.

Lee : But there's another. Rephrase that question then.

Do you think males in particular suffer more with loneliness than maybe females

Why do you think, or do you think that males in particular suffer more with loneliness than maybe females?

Martin : I don't want to generalise but yeah I do. I think women are better at talking and better at just like guys seem to be. If you want to sort of generalise it, if I'll go out with my mates. It's not a lot of the time it's not, I've changed this now but it was never how are you doing? You're just kind of so when I was struggling I was the master at dodging that question. I would change a subject, I wouldn't answer it, I would just go on with it. And it's a kind of this macho thing that guys are meant to man up and not talk about things and just get on with things. It's this sort of thing that's just carried along. Whereas females seem to be better at expressing their emotions and talking to friends and just saying, oh this isn't going great. Whereas guys don't seem to do that a lot the time. And even when you say the loneliness, I had people around me.

Lee : Yeah, yeah.

Martin : I still had friends, I still had family, I still played football, I still went to the gym, still coached football. I had people around me all the time. But it was inside my head that I was, I was lonely. And when we get inside our heads that's when we start to convince ourselves that nobody knows what we're going through or do you know what? I'm not going to speak to them because they are too busy in their lives. Or the one word that sticks out to me that I hear in here, all the time when you do a one to one with one of the guys but you never hear anywhere outside of here is burden. We convince ourselves we're a burden and people are too busy to help us and too busy to speak to us or we're not worthy enough of speaking to people. It's just this thing that guys seem to think we have to, we have to look all right all the time and everything has to be good and then if we, we show any sort of emotion it's weakness. Like I was saying, see when I struggled that one of the things that started that was my dad passed away and I went, I was at my dad's funeral and he get a funeral here, but he wanted to be buried in Ireland. So we went over Ireland to have an, another funeral the next day and then he was buried there. I was at my dad's funeral twice in two days and I don't remember anything. The only thing I remember is me standing at the front trying not to cry because I thought people think I'm weak, they'll think I don't, I can't look after my mum, my brother, all that sort of stuff, a lot of a lot of nonsense. But I'd convinced myself of that. And it's just like, who cares if I cry at my own dad's funeral? But, I thought at the time that would make me weak or show that. So I always say guys when they come in here as well. We go a school for seven years of primary school and then at least four years of secondary school, sometimes six. And you're never taught about emotions yet when you go out, that's the one thing that's going to follow you the rest of your life. You don't need maths, at it your whole life. You don't need languages, French or that your whole life.

Lee : I don't know. I'd say in that algebra's really stood me in good stead for the rest of my life. Trigonometry and triangles, I mean, you're using them every day, especially in here.

Martin : I would have thought we've got them up in the wall, whatever.

Lee : you're right. And I think that's changing now. So My daughters are 6 and 9.

Martin : Yeah.

Lee : They now do that sort of thing that's only been about, what, not that long, I think.

Martin : I do believe things have got better and are changing for the better. But my time and a lot of time, it's just guys aren't taught to deal with emotions. People aren't taught to deal with emotions. So then when they have to deal and they don't know what to do, and then what do we do? Do we talk about it? Do we. What do we do? So it's just, it's. We struggle with that sometimes and that's just where we can get our house. Once you're stuck in that head, that's a horrible place to be sometimes.

Men matter m work to help men talk about depression and other issues

Lee : Spiral.

Martin : Yeah.

Lee : It can be difficult to get again saying about men and their behaviour. Since I was diagnosed, the listeners will be fed up on me saying this, but I. I meet my mate Bob, so I'm really from Dorset and I meet Bob halfway in Knutsford. Every six months we make an effort to meet each other and having been through what I've been through and him being. I was his best man and, you know, we're thick as thieves, but we will spend a weekend in Knutsford just having a chat and, and having a pint or whatever, But I'll get home and my wife is set and my wife will say, how was Bob? Right, yeah, yeah, he's all right, yeah. How's. How's Kara, his wife? don't know. Really. Didn't really speak about that. What about the kid? The kids all right? Is the kids doing all right. I don't know. He didn't say they weren't. And I don't know what we talk about. Yeah. Ah, but we don't talk about our feelings or emotions, our family or anything. We just talk shite. But it's a week, but it works. It's good fun. And I think. But the difference is, I think that because we've got that relationship, if there was anything that was troubling him or if there was anything that was troubling me, we've got that relationship where you could open up and speak to that person. And I think that's the difference is there's a lot of people who maybe don't have that opportunity to go, do you know what? Actually I'm feeling shit and I just need to talk to somebody.

Martin : Yeah. And I think that's why places like Men matter m work. So, what we usually do if a guy is, get them and we'll do the quick tour. You done? We'll get them signed up as a member, then we take them in for a one to one chat and that's their opportunity to tell us what's going on, tell us what their struggles are and then we'll get a, plan in place for them to move forward. But in the four years I'm here, I always hear this, men don't talk. and I think it's a lot of crap, man. Ah. So I've been in here four years and I've done hundreds if not thousands of 181s with guys and I'll have not met that guy five minutes before. Will come in this room, sit down, what's going on, mate? And 99 times out 100, they'll open up.

Lee : Yeah.

Martin : So men do talk if the environment is there for them to talk. But what I was going to say on that is sometimes it's easier to speak to a stranger or somebody you don't know. Sometimes it's hard to speak to your family because there's a lot going on in your family. Even like my, one of my good mates, one of my best mates, when I was struggling, he was, took me out to watch the football or something one day and I could see him looking at me and I was like, what is it? And he's like, how's the, how's the mental thing? And I just bust out laughing. What, the depression, mate. He's like, I, sorry, I just don't, don't know how to ask about that stuff. And I was like, that's Fine, mate. So I explained every bit and he got a bit more. But the key thing is that was one of my best mates. He just didn't know how to ask about that. But his way helped me was to take me out and hang about with me. So it's just about finding people that you can speak to about some stuff or some people that you just need to hang about with. Because at that time I didn't need to be speaking about depression all the time. Sometimes I just needed normal conversations. So it's good to have people that you can just go and shoot the shit with and then it's good to have a support network where you go and speak to somebody about this or, they're well placed to do that, or a lot of people. What I try and say to the guys, right. Who do you speak to if you're struggling? A lot of time it's nobody. Or they'll say, oh, my partner. Right. What happens if you argue with your partner? Who do you speak to? right, okay. So we need to build a support network. We've got different people to go and ask.

Lee : Definitely. I'm conscious. It's four minutes past eleven.

Martin : Alright, you want to jump in?

Lee : Can we. Is it too late to gate crash?

Martin : No, no, you're right to finish there.

I enjoyed the talking group, it was very cathartic

Lee : Right, right, well, sorry, that's, that's me just back from the talking group. And, I don't know if enjoyed is the right word, but I think being sat in a room with what we were talking about earlier, sat in a room with 15, 20 guys who are, doing their version of crawling through the mud just makes you feel that you're not, you know, you're not the only one with your struggles or problems or issues or whatever it is. We're not all sat on the balcony in Greece having a beer. There's people who are going through it and I think, you know, that makes you feel less alone and maybe less vulnerable. So, yeah, no, I, I thoroughly, I say, to use the word inverted commas, enjoyed it. It was, it was. I've not done something like that before. Yeah, it was very cathartic.

Martin : That's just a simple. Yeah, yeah, simple session. We do. But as you say, it's powerful.

Men Matter Scotland is dedicated to suicide prevention and well being

Lee : Okay, right, so back to the podcast. We've talked about you and how you ended up at Men Matter, and from what I've seen, it was 3Dads from John Chapel. So it started.

Martin : Yep.

Lee : How did it all start and what did they see that maybe other people weren't seeing?

Martin : So as you Say it was three Dads from Drum Chapel. I think a couple of them, their partners were struggling with postnatal, but there were three dads and didn't quite know what they were doing as dads. This is what Fraser tells me anyway, he, he'd tell the storey better. But they did a 12, 12 week pilot project. They were getting together, meeting every week. And what they found towards the end of that, as the relationships with our partners were getting better, the kids were behaving better, they were feeling much better, meeting, having that more purpose in their lives. So at the end of the 12 weeks they decided it wasn't just dads that needed it, it was men that needed it. That at the time there was a lot of suicides in the area. Drum Chapel. So they started Men Matter Scotland. And they started in, I believe it was the chest, heart and stroke. There's a room at the back of that where they did the talking group every week. And then they expanded that to going to playing football in a local park. It was good to get everybody around. And then they started doing some litter picking in the local area. Some of them are a bit wary about doing that. They sort of, it's a bit like community service. But what they found was after doing it they, they'd lifted tens of thousands of pounds of street drugs off the streets and a lot of that was in local parks and they're thinking, my kids play here, could have picked that up. So they seen the benefit of what they were doing and they went for assist training, which is applied suicide intervention training. It teaches you how to talk to somebody for suicidal. We still do that training twice a year here for all our staff and volunteers. But they went for that in this building. We're in the now. That was Cope Scotland before and Fraser seen that Cope Scotland were packing up so he went and asked the guy, John Oliver, he sadly passed. Now, who owns this building? What's happening with the building? And he said, I don't know yet. And Fraser explained the project to him and he was right on board with it. And I believe he said, right, get yourself set up and after a year you can start paying me back. So gave us this whole building, ah, for now for a bit until we got it all sorted and we got charity status and got this place opened in February 2020 and then bang, March 2020, Covid hits. But because of the work we were doing, it was we get special dispensation to stay open and have all the the Covid regulations in place and then the places just grew and grew from there. So primarily we are suicide prevention. That's the main thing we try and do. But what we try and be, well being. Suicide prevention is for men's mental health and well being. So people don't feel they have to come as if they're suicidal. You can come to that any time before. If you're struggling, lonely, just having, not having a great time either your life, whatever it is, people can come along.

Lee : I mean, just being here and seeing that. You said this starts, started in 2020. I mean, I was having a look, you showed me earlier the weekly programme in the short, relatively short space of time. And again we've had Covid in that period as well. It's nothing short of remarkable. I mean, I'm just looking through this week alone. You've got sound baths, community work, cbt, breath work, cold water therapy, fishing. I mean that's really the tip of the iceberg. I mean you've got like a full day's programme five days a week, plus fishing on a Saturday.

Martin : The reason Fraser started this is he had his own struggles. He'd tell you about that, if he was here, but he felt when he was going to services he was getting passed from pillar to post and he wasn't getting the help he needed. So the reason behind Men Matter is to try and take away all that stuff and be open for guys and be there for people that need it. So we try and be a seven day a week, charity. We're open Monday, Friday, Saturday, as you say, we go fishing Sunday, Dale takes the guys out, and I go wild. We get out in a natural paddleboard, kayak, do a walk or whatever. We've also got the street team as well that go out Friday, Saturday and Sunday evenings from 9 o', clock, go about drum Chapel, enter the city centre and, and they'll go to local hotspots. We worked with the police, fire brigade, the humane society down at the Clyde and we go about and speak to anybody that's struggling getting the help and support they'd get them in here the following week. So we try and do that. And Monday, Thursday we're open. We're open Monday, Friday from half 10 to 8pm But Monday, Thursday we've got at least three classes on a day that will help guys improve their mental health and well being, learn about their thoughts and feelings and how to move forward, teach them positive coping mechanisms like the meditation, like the sound bath and stuff like that. all these different positive coping mechanisms that will teach the guys something they can do if they're struggling. And then there's plenty going on with the talking groups as well. So we try and have a holistic approach so that we don't think it's a one size fits all. There's going to be certain guys that will get certain something from that class, but maybe not from that class. So we just encourage them to come in, try the classes, see what works for them and then get in amongst it.

Lee : No, and exactly, I mean that's what the podcast is all about really, is that what might work for one person doesn't necessarily work for, for somebody else. So having such a wide range of activities and things that people can try I think is just amazing.

Martin : Ah, that's what we try and do. For me anyway, the first sign of a guy struggling is they start to isolate themselves. They pull away from people, stop doing the things they enj, they just get stuck in their head. So what we try and do with somebody new coming in as we get them in, we'll give them a quick tour, we'll sit down and get them signed up so we've got some details from them. We'll then have a one, one chat, see what's going on with them, listen and then put a plan in place. 3 month plan. Why don't you try this, Signpost them to other services as well and then get them in. So the classes will teach them about their thoughts and feelings, how to move forward, teach them positive coping mechanisms. We'll get talking around. Other guys have a sense of community and connection. And then after about three, four, five weeks, if we see them putting the effort in it themselves, we've got counselling that goes on in here as well. Counselling and CBT. So we've got around 30 people a week getting counselling with no real, real waiting list. It's just if we see them coming in and putting the effort into themselves and they've tried some of the classes, learned a bit about themselves, put them into counselling, they to a professional about the bigger stuff and we find that works and then we've got an employability officer, they can speak to after that to get an employment volunteering. Some people become a volunteer here, some people just go off and live their lives and hopefully they've got the toolbox now to go and live a good life.

Martin Melli says exercise keeps him going when down in the dumps

Lee : So Martin, when you are now down in the dumps, what works for Martin Melli?

Martin : For me I go to the gym. That's a big Thing for me is exercise. If I go more than two, three days without doing exercise, I start to feel that grip on the back of my head. So exercising the gym is massive for me. I meditate for 10 minutes in the morning, Monday to Friday, before I come to work. I try to get a good sleep. I have a read before bed, I walk the dog, spend time with a partner, I go to the football. It's not just one thing for me,

Lee : all those tools, isn't it?

Martin : because I've learned over the years that, for example, last year I was away with my partner and her family and we're staying in a big farmhouse. My thing's going to the gym, wake up in the morning, go down to the kettle. It was on a oil stove thing. Pick it up, there's no water in it. Go over the sink, put water in it. Didn't know it was on there for ages. Steam goes everywhere, mainly all over both my hands. And I'm walking about with both my hands wrapped up. Can I go to the gym anymore? So if I've only got one thing to keep me going, then that stops it. So we encourage the guys and myself to do lots of things and mix things up, get yourself in amongst it. So the, gym is one of my main things. But the key for me is I've learned over the years that I promised myself I'm never going back to that depression. So I need to keep. Keep doing the things I learned to get myself out there. I need to keep doing that. I kind of just get complacent and stop because that's when you start to slip back. So it's a constant for me, trying to upkeep it. But it's all wee, small, simple things. There's nothing major there, so it's easy to implement. But if I stop doing that, I can start to feel that nag at the back of my head.

Lee : I mean, if you don't mind me saying as well, I mean, you must earn, a pretty good income from your, Paul Scholes lookalike.

Martin : You'd be surprised. I would love that. But no. And I wish I had the skill as well. So.

Lee : Sorry, I couldn't help myself.

One of our members is putting on a class on podcasting

what I was going to say was one of the things you've got on is podcast like a pro. And I was just wondering, you know, because we're sort of making this up on the hoof. although we haven't, believe it or not, we haven't do this for four years. So I just wondered whether, you know, there was Room for say, like myself to maybe come along to one of those sessions to find out how to do a podcast.

Martin : I'm sure you'll teach us your figure too as well. Yeah, that's one of our members, Don. He's just been one of our volunteers. Sorry, he's just been a uni and, he wanted to put on a class. So he's put on this six week class teaching the guys how to start a podcast, how to record and all that. So it seems to be going well. So we rotate the classes every six weeks to keep it fresh. So he's been. He's on. That's on week six. Ah, this week. So that'll be back soon. So get yourself in m teachers a hanger too. You can get.

Lee : Right.

Men Matter is trying to expand its reach and reach more people

Lastly then, what would you say to anyone sitting at home right now who thinks that nobody understands?

Martin : So one of the key things we try and say to the staff and volunteers in here is we can't. I don't know how you're feeling. So if you come in and say, I'm, going through this, I might have been through something similar. But I don't know exactly how you're feeling. But if you're saying, I can ask you, how does that make you feel? And you say sad, I can go, all right, I've felt sad, so I know what that's like for me and I can empathise. So people don't know what, how you're feeling, but people can empathise and support you through that and that's what we are here to do. But you have to reach out for that support.

Lee : How do people get in touch with you? What would be the best way? Someone sat listening to this now and they think, yeah, this could be something for me. What's the best way for them to get in contact with Men Matter?

Martin : That's one of the things we try and do, is make it as easy as possible for people. So as I say, we're open from Monday to Friday from half 10 in the morning till 8pm, a hub here in Drum Chapel. You can drop in, you can phone up, you can message us on Facebook or Instagram, you can go on our website where there's a wee referral form. You can refer yourself or get somebody to refer you, whatever is easiest for you and takes away the anxiety and, we can go from there. We've also opened up another hub on a Friday in Cumbernauld, so that's open from 10 to 8 on a Friday. So we're Trying to expand this and we're trying to make it as easy as possible for people to get in touch. So get in touch whatever way is easiest for you. All our info is on online, so whatever's the easiest for you because we get a lot of people. I've been thinking about coming for a while. Yeah. And you can talk about it. I can talk about it here. But the best thing for people to do is. Is just come along and see it. Yeah. Because we can talk about to a blue in the face. But it's different when you get in. So it's just about trying to get that next guy through the door. Yeah.

Lee : And I think that's it, isn't it? It's. It's like going for a run. But it's one thing thinking, I must go for a run. I must go for a run. But the hardest part sometimes actually just getting over the threshold, imagine that's the same as making that decision to come and actually stepping into the building.

Martin : That's what we always say. The hardest things, getting through the door. Once you're through the door, it's much easier. And there's loads of people that have said, I've wanted to come for ages, or I've passed by and just kept going, or I've got to the car park. If you come to the car park, just phone as we'll come out and get you. Whatever it is, just get yourself in, man.

Lee : I think what you're doing here is fantastic. And I say how I found out about you was Dr. Jan. So the listeners will know about Dr. Jan. And she said what they're doing at Men Matter is just slightly different from maybe how other people are doing it. And they're having a difference and they're having an impact and they're going out into the community, not just expecting people to come over the threshold. But. So I think what you're doing is brilliant. So thank you for your time, Martin. I really appreciate it.

Martin : And,

Lee : And for letting me come in and see what you're doing.

Martin : No, thanks for coming me. It's a pleasure.